Technologically/Intellectually Superior Aliens: "Unpleasant Visits"?

[Moontanman]

I wrote Professor Hawking an e-mail, pronouncing my displeasure in his public statement, also.

 

I find that his stance forces one to literally ignore our entire ancient history...in that "god" seeks to help and protect us...'now' anyways. There was the whole Sodom and Gomorra, and the Flood thing, but those days are supposed to be over.

 

God? I thought we were talking about aliens, I doubt aliens have any need or desire to protect us from anything. if contact with aliens has produced our ideas about God i would think the contacts were meant more to experiment with how to control and influence us for their own benefit. .

[King, North TX]

God? I thought we were talking about aliens, I doubt aliens have any need or desire to protect us from anything. if contact with aliens has produced our ideas about God i would think the contacts were meant more to experiment with how to control and influence us for their own benefit. .

 

Actually, 'I' never appreciated the use of the term "aliens", as I find that they are no more 'alien' to this planet than we are. I rather prefer "U.F.O.", who's physical depictions and descriptions have gone hand-in-hand with "god" for millennia.

 

Our scientific researchers observe, tag, and track all sorts of animal life. The more endangered, the more of an interest we tend to take. Usually, we take a hands-off approach, as we don't want to intervene in their natural development. However, we have taken part in selective breeding processes and released the off-spring back into their habitat.

 

All that said, I can't say with any certainty as to what 'their' motives and practices are, or what they are intended to do.

 

My only proposed point is say that 'they' ARE, as evidence of their existence is noted throughout our historical record.

Edited May 4, 2010 by King, North TX

[Moontanman]

They are native to our planet? They have been here as long as we have? They ? Care to elaborate on where THEY came from? While I admit the evidence of aliens is subject to argument at the very least, "They" in the way you are using it makes no sense ot me.

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Well I was kind of joking, considering dinosaur bones and all. But you do have a point. Where's the stuffed dragons, or other trophies from such an impressive kill? You'd think someone would have kept a tooth or a claw at least.

 

Well actually the fossilized heads of proto-ceratopsin dinosaurs were once thought to be evidence of Griffons.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin

 

Scholar Adrienne Mayor argues that the griffin was inspired by Protoceratops fossils in Central Asia.[3] Mayor noted that, like griffins, Protoceratops had beaked faces, protected eggs in nests, and were associated with gold due to their fossils often being located in or near gold-bearing ores.

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Are you seriously suggesting that deliberately taking things out of context helps your case?

 

 

edit: It looks like a peach pit.

 

Yes, i am, the object looks like technology to me, it has three glowing lights, portholes, a gun, and a round hull with a round protrusion on it. You seemed to think that looking at the picture of the man and the dog looking at it in the sky caused people to think UFO so i took it out of the picture so it can be seen independent of any external leading images. Peach pit? ydoaPs, are you so much a skeptic that you would reject any image as either too little info or too good to be true? What do you think of this image?

 

 

Or this one

 

 

Or this one

 

 

Or this one

 

 

Or this one

 

 

Notice all but one of these pictures were taken way before the idea oif "flying saucers" had hit the popular media and way before the frenzy of hoaxes had started. "Lights in the sky?" I don't think so.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Moontanman
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[Mr Skeptic]

Actually, 'I' never appreciated the use of the term "aliens", as I find that they are no more 'alien' to this planet than we are. I rather prefer "U.F.O.", who's physical depictions and descriptions have gone hand-in-hand with "god" for millennia.

 

Actually the term U.F.O. generally refers to things like clouds, airplanes, weather balloons, meteors, etc., which have not been identified as such by the speaker at that time.

[Sisyphus]

I can't resist.

 

 

I can't possibly explain every anecdote, or every supposed picture. The above is part of why I don't feel like I need to.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Sisyphus

[ecoli]

Notice all but one of these pictures were taken way before the idea oif "flying saucers" had hit the popular media and way before the frenzy of hoaxes had started. "Lights in the sky?" I don't think so.

 

yeah and the meme had to have come from somewhere. People had the ability to fake pictures before the days of photoshop.

 

What is your prior that these photos are legitimate evidence of alien tech/life?

Edited May 4, 2010 by ecoli

[Moontanman]

Actually the term U.F.O. generally refers to things like clouds, airplanes, weather balloons, meteors, etc., which have not been identified as such by the speaker at that time.

 

I think if you replaced "generally" with "originally" your statement would be more accurate. in the modern vernacular UFO pretty much means alien space craft. I often try to assert that UFO simply means unidentified thingy in the sky and i am often told in no uncertain terms that was it's original meaning but now it means a alien space ship.

 

The photos i posted are not just for ydaops, I would welcome some input from all interested parties. There truly are some photos that are simply inexplicable. Taken far before the popular idea of flying saucer was coined and way before the idea of hoaxing alien space ships came about.

 

I love the flake equation, it is so very true! The best jokes often are, in our society of often instant information is has become far to easy (IMHO) to find someone that will agree with you no matter how completely full of shit you are. It has become almost impossible to thread your way through the bullshit to find some semblance of the true in almost all topics.

 

This effect has caused the ideas of UFOs and aliens to become especially silly, no one can find any real info with out diving through miles of total bullshit.

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yeah and the meme had to have come from somewhere. People had the ability to fake pictures before the days of photoshop.

 

What is your prior that these photos are legitimate evidence of alien tech/life.

 

The idea that UFO photos are of two groups is how what i call rabid skeptics explain away all possible photos. Either they are too fuzzy to see anything or they are too good to be real.

 

Rabid skeptics are just as bad as the rabid believer who thinks every odd thing in the sky is an alien space craft. I honestly do my best to try and be open minded with out allowing my brain to fall out.

 

The photos shown are not all false, they are not all hoaxes, coming from the time period they do both hoax seems very unlikely, almost to a photo they depict something the skeptics say only happened after the Kenneth Arnold sighting in California

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Arnold

 

Skeptics used to be proud of the fact that flying saucers or round UFOs were not seen until after Kenneth Arnold and the media made the idea popular. When it was shown not to be true they fall back on "well even before photos could have been faked and due to the photos the round shape must have already been in the popular mindset after all"

 

No matter how good the evidence the skeptics will pic it apart. Great picture? Too good to be true, must be a fake, can't be shown to be a fake? Then why no pieces of an alien space craft? Until a alien space craft lands on the Whitehouse lawn and calls a press conference there is no way to even allow for the possibility among skeptics.

 

On the other hand true believers will take any thing that is claimed with no evidence what so ever as absolute fact. UFO abducts woman from her New York pent house apartment on the busiest street in the city and no one else sees the UFO hovering outside, no problem.

 

Aliens visit the white house, no problem, some where some how there has to be some sort of in between where these things can be investigated with no baggage. Allen Hyneck tried and failed, there is no room in the middle anymore for many issues, it's sad and would be counter productive to any investigation about anything.

 

Just because it might have been possible to fake photos back then the idea of alien space craft was not part of the popular media or zeitgeist, To say that all good photos must be fake is just wrong IMHO. Far to many really credible sightings have been reported, sightings that were not just lights in the sky, reported by credible witnesses, seen by military, civilians, and radar from both groups.

 

I honestly do not think UFOs are just stupidity no matter how goofy the popular culture makes this idea at one time the it was not such a circus and the evidence was still there. BTW the one photo over San Francisco is a military photo of the battle of San Francisco which was a real event and not as easily portrayed as war jitters as everyone now tries to say. Back then it was taken very seriously and photos do seem to show actual craft in the sky.

 

I'm not asking you to believe, I'm asking you not to give me the knee jerk reaction of automatic dismissal of all evidence because it's impossible. it's not impossible as i have theorized, it is improbable but the improbable can happen. Ignoring that possibility because the two extreme schools of thought cannot get together is simply wrong.

 

BTW, yes the meme had to come from some where, did you ever consider the idea might have come from actual sightings of alien space craft? Just because now days the circus has all but swamped all possible information makes it important to note these things were being seen way before the circus got started.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Moontanman
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[ecoli]

Moontanman - I agree and that's why I asked what your estimated prior probability that the photographed (or any) UFO contains Alien life on board.. Is it 90% is it 60%???

 

You may be interested in the following blog posts:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/are-ufos-aliens.html

http://lesswrong.com/lw/27e/but_somebody_would_have_noticed/

http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ww/undiscriminating_skepticism/

[King, North TX]

They are native to our planet? They have been here as long as we have? They ? Care to elaborate on where THEY came from? While I admit the evidence of aliens is subject to argument at the very least, "They" in the way you are using it makes no sense ot me.

 

...

 

'They' as in the phenomena isn't 'singular'. And, I don't care to elaborate, as I have no idea whatsoever from where they hail, nor evidence to even begin such speculation.

 

I wouldn't say they are native to this planet, either.

 

What I would only say that it isn't necessary to 'require' that they be able to travel inter-stellar distances, given that they appear in our historical just as soon as man started carving on cave walls.

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Actually the term U.F.O. generally refers to things like clouds, airplanes, weather balloons, meteors, etc., which have not been identified as such by the speaker at that time.

 

I'll concede that.

 

However, we have images/paintings that contain clouds AND "flying sauces"/disk shapes in the sky. If it 'unidentified', flying, and an object of some kind, the label fits...

 

God, by every depiction I've seen IS a U.F.O. in that we don't really know what "god" truly is. All that one could ever say for certain is that "god(s) is(are) in (the) heaven(s)."

[Moontanman]

Moontanman - I agree and that's why I asked what your estimated prior probability that the photographed (or any) UFO contains Alien life on board.. Is it 90% is it 60%???

 

You may be interested in the following blog posts:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/are-ufos-aliens.html

http://lesswrong.com/lw/27e/but_somebody_would_have_noticed/

http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ww/undiscriminating_skepticism/

 

Any estimate i could give would be based on my assumption of biological isolation between different planetary ecosystems. Or at the very least the unlikely idea that different planets would be enough alike to allow beings from one to live successfully on others.

 

I think UFOs if real would most probably be automated probes, possibly if the beings involved are real, then they would be robots of some sort, possibly so sophisticated we would see them as living beings. I also have serious doubts that advanced beings would risk themselves to capture by primitives like us.

 

Great links BTW, nice to see real rational thought hasn't completely gone byby these days.

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'They' as in the phenomena isn't 'singular'. And, I don't care to elaborate, as I have no idea whatsoever from where they hail, nor evidence to even begin such speculation.

 

They, have to come from somewhere, we can speculate on teh possibilities even if we cannot say for sure.

 

I wouldn't say they are native to this planet, either.

 

Alternate worlds?

 

What I would only say that it isn't necessary to 'require' that they be able to travel inter-stellar distances, given that they appear in our historical just as soon as man started carving on cave walls.

 

So you have some ideas but you will not share them with us?

[Mr Skeptic]

It's really inconvenient that all those alien ships are round shapes. I mean, round is an extremely common shape and also very easy to make. If you get two round shapes you get a the traditional flying saucer. I mean, if the things were airplane-shaped, all those smudgy ones would definitely be more credible.

 

Edit: And not one of our airplane shapes.

[ydoaPs]

It's really inconvenient that all those alien ships are round shapes. I mean, round is an extremely common shape and also very easy to make. If you get two round shapes you get a the traditional flying saucer. I mean, if the things were airplane-shaped, all those smudgy ones would definitely be more credible.

 

Edit: And not one of our airplane shapes.

 

Like an Asgard cruiser?

[Moontanman]

Here is another good one, from 1870! purported to be the first UFO picture ever taken! A stereo picture at that!

 

 

Close up of the object.

 

 

1870-Mt. Washington, New Hampshire. This photo is dubbed, "the oldest UFO photograph ever taken." This item was the subject of bidding at Ebay in 2002, when finally the photo was purchased for $385.00 by Samuel M. Sherman, who was the president of Independent-International Pictures Corp. This was originally a "stereo" photograph. Certainly it was difficult to manipulate photos at that time, and remember, there were no flying objects then; at least, not from this world.

Thanks to a reader, we now have the "stereo" photo.

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It's really inconvenient that all those alien ships are round shapes. I mean, round is an extremely common shape and also very easy to make. If you get two round shapes you get a the traditional flying saucer. I mean, if the things were airplane-shaped, all those smudgy ones would definitely be more credible.

 

Edit: And not one of our airplane shapes.

 

 

For all we know the propulsion system requires the round shape. Then again if they were shaped like airplanes the skeptics would say they were just airplanes...

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here ya go Mr. skeptic

 

 

 

1961-Pescara, Italy. Bruno Ghibaudi, a scientific newspaper journalist, took several photographs of strange flying devices on the beaches of Pescara along the Adriatic sea in April 1961. He also claims he had encountered extra-terrestrial beings. Here is a larger version of the picture. Note: This looks more like a flying locust than anything else. One of the strangest flying objects I have seen.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Moontanman
wrong date

[Double K]

This entire premise is based on the ideal that aliens would "somehow" be similar to us.

 

Hawking has used humans as a base model for what the aliens "may be like"

however I think that does dis-service to the postulation.

 

The universe is so wide and varied, and the chances of another planet supporting life similar to ours is quite small.

 

Taking this into account, wouldn't it be naive or perhaps even short sighted or arrogant to postulate that aliens must be similar to us even down to a psychological level?

 

What's to the say the life form isn't crystal based and wants to merge with iron ore crystals to form some new breed of interstellar crystal creature?

Ok, it's ridiculous, but if we're hypothesising on alien life-forms, I think there are pretty much no rules...

 

It's also assuming that a xeno-species would be resource hungry, and would treat great resource deposits with the same disrespect that humans do, where-as the natural way is to conserve energy/food/water/resource. Humans live in a very disharmonious fashion with our environment, and yet if you study animal behaviour in any other species, insect, mammal, (insert anything other than human) their natural tendency is to protect their resource either through evolution/adaptation, keeping numbers sustainable, killing their young, you name it balance is the aim - so in fact it makes more sense that an alien species could manage the planet better than us, although they would probably do so quite brutally and indescriminately, with survival and maximising yield to population. They would also realise that humans are part of an eco system (or are we?) and that we would be an integral part of the health of the planet (perhaps at different population levels)...

[King, North TX]

...

 

They, have to come from somewhere, we can speculate on teh possibilities even if we cannot say for sure.

 

 

 

Alternate worlds?

 

 

 

So you have some ideas but you will not share them with us?

 

I sincerely have no clue as to where they came from... They 'could' come from Titan, the dark side of the moon, or one of our deepest oceans. There is literally ZERO evidence to start speculating.

 

My only point is that there's no need to 'require' that they posses the ability to travel inter-stellar distances to get here, as they've always been 'here'/in the neighborhood.

[Moontanman]

I sincerely have no clue as to where they came from... They 'could' come from Titan, the dark side of the moon, or one of our deepest oceans. There is literally ZERO evidence to start speculating.

 

My only point is that there's no need to 'require' that they posses the ability to travel inter-stellar distances to get here, as they've always been 'here'/in the neighborhood.

 

If we allow that there is enough evidence to show they are here then there is enough evidence to at least speculate where they do not come from. to say they could come from Titan is very hard to allow for, we know the conditions on titan do not allow to creatures even close to the creatures we see in historical documents or in UFO mythology.

 

"They" almost certainly have to come from

 

#1 Another star system, at least originally

 

#2 A past civilization that colonized the solar system but died out completely on the earth, Intelligent dinosaurs anyone?

 

#3 time travelers.

 

#4 alternate worlds or dimensions.

 

Any other suggestions?

[Mr Skeptic]

#5 a fertile imagination

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here ya go Mr. skeptic

 

 

Neat! Is this one a different species as the type that prefers saucers?

Edited May 6, 2010 by Mr Skeptic
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[Moontanman]

#5 a fertile imagination

 

Ah, no, we are saying if they are here, not assuming they are not.

 

 

Neat! Is this one a different species as the type that prefers saucers?

 

You got me, it lookes like a winged flying penis to me.

[Double K]

You got me, it lookes like a winged flying penis to me.

 

Can't say I've had the opportunity to see one of those for comparison...

 

There is a Swiss guy that is well known for his work on UFO's and he has some pretty convincing footage (I think he also doesn't stipulate they are alien but military...)

Although these are seen as pretty controversial, I'm not advocating any of it is real, merely pointing you to it, make up your own minds I guess...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Meier

 

Either way..the chances of anything coming from mars....UH LAAAA!

[Moontanman]

Billy Meier is a case of either absolute proof or total Bullshit, not much room in the middle at all. The photos of his that have been tested seemed to show they are fakes but then again he says the photos were altered by intelligence agents to make them look like fakes....

[Double K]

Oh after reading a bit of that about Billy Meier I was wrong; he does state the are extraterrestrial..

 

They also tested some metal samples which a metallurgist said was formed using methods which we dont have (cold fusion) and verified that they were at least not faked in that regard - but then those disappeared....

 

I guess something to keep in mind as a point of interest is the amazing leap in technology we had from tube technology to the eletrics we now use - at the time, and the level of other technology out there it was a huge leap - having said that, it doesnt make it an impossible step but the point is that most of our technology is progressive where it comes from refining a process and redesigning, where-as the change to the new technology was a totally new way of thinking (almost as though back engineered, at least I can understand how it could be perceived that way)

[Mr Skeptic]

Ah, no, we are saying if they are here, not assuming they are not.

 

I'm offended. Are you saying we don't have fertile imaginations? That in reality people do not imagine things?

[Moontanman]

I'm offended. Are you saying we don't have fertile imaginations? That in reality people do not imagine things?

 

Ok, point taken, i generally view imaginations as being personal to the person having them, if it is the same thing being imagined independently by different people over large periods of time I have to think of it as some sort of mental thing (not crazy or flaw) that many people have in common. Like sleep paralysis, I have it, my mom has it and so do my sons. Only once have seen beings around me during that time, my mom sees demons with some regularity, so far my son only has out of body experiences as do I most of the time.

 

 

I know the experiences are not real, so does my son, my mom I'm not so sure about, her religious views seem to be confirmed by the experiences.

 

UFOs could indeed be some sort of stuttering of the brain if not for the photos and group sightings. Imagination is hard to photograph, I know the hard core skeptic refuse to believe any photo can be real but their refusal to believe does not make them all fakes any more than belief makes them real.

 

My take on this so far is that, as i have said many times so far, IF UFOs are real the most likely source is aliens already colonizing our solar system via artificial colonies.

 

I think the evidence is powerful that UFOs represent some real unknowns, exactly what the unknowns are has yet to be determined but it would be nice to know what would it take to make the skeptics believe UFOs are real?

 

What would it take?

[Mr Skeptic]

UFOs could indeed be some sort of stuttering of the brain if not for the photos and group sightings. Imagination is hard to photograph, I know the hard core skeptic refuse to believe any photo can be real but their refusal to believe does not make them all fakes any more than belief makes them real.

 

However, photographs are easy to imagine. I've seen several photos where things appear to be something they most definitely are not.

 

I think the evidence is powerful that UFOs represent some real unknowns, exactly what the unknowns are has yet to be determined but it would be nice to know what would it take to make the skeptics believe UFOs are real?

 

What would it take?

 

Well of course UFOs represent unknowns, it's right in the name. But what would it take to convince me that they're aliens? How about one of these:

1) A piece of alien technology. Technology, not just a new alloy, unless the alloy is made of non-terrestrial material (verifiable via isotope ratios).

2) A piece of alien biology.

3) A clear photograph or video, together with a large (100 or so) crowd of witnesses confirming that they saw it too.

4) An alien colony (eg using solar power out in space, or on a planet or asteroid).

[Moontanman]

However, photographs are easy to imagine. I've seen several photos where things appear to be something they most definitely are not.

 

Yes and photos that are obviously some sort of strange craft are assumed to be fake no matter how good they are. As a matter of fact the better the photos are the more they are assumed to be fake.

 

Well of course UFOs represent unknowns, it's right in the name. But what would it take to convince me that they're aliens? How about one of these:

 

One of them has been shown many times, sightings by large groups of people have occurred and there are films of these sightings, always assumed to be faked or hoaxes.

 

1) A piece of alien technology. Technology, not just a new alloy, unless the alloy is made of non-terrestrial material (verifiable via isotope ratios).

 

You expect a piece to fall off an alien space craft?

 

2) A piece of alien biology.

 

You expect an alien to shed an arm or leg and leave it behind ?

 

3) A clear photograph or video, together with a large (100 or so) crowd of witnesses confirming that they saw it too.

 

That has already been produced several times, it's always debunked by skeptics as too good to be true or a mass hallucination caused by some sort of hoax. Such mass sightings are dismissed out of hand as quickly as individual sightings.

 

4) An alien colony (eg using solar power out in space, or on a planet or asteroid).

 

This is not impossible but so far no such thing has been found. I have some high hopes for the infrared telescopes but I'm not sure the places in the solar system they might be are being looked at seriously.