Phi for All Posted August 22, 2004 Author Posted August 22, 2004 What am I supposed to do with this? Please pass it along to newbie. I'm not sure why budullewraagh wanted YOU to have it. If he hasn't figured out by now where you stand on forum trolling, he needs to reread a LOT. Reading newbie's posts is like watching The O'Reilly Factor. What he can't understand he ignores, what he disagrees with he doesn't listen to, and what he believes in he believes in sacredly, sheltering those beliefs from any further evaluation, inspection or criticism. This is the greatest mistake scientific reasoning can make. Nothing is ever exactly the way you want it to be, no matter how well-informed you believe yourself to be. Supporting troops who are in the middle of horrific conflict while not supporting the governmental and corporate decisions that put them there are a big part of Michael Moore's message, IMO. I deplore the kind of debate tactics that allow trollers to impugn our patriotism by saying we don't support the soldiers if we don't support the war they are fighting. John Kerry is facing a similar attack right now on his Vietnam stance. In too many people's minds the two seem inseperable, but we need to remember that government is a dangerous servant and a horrible master when it declares war on fellow humans. Iraq is not our enemy, Afghanistan is not our enemy. Terrorism is, and we make it stronger with unthinking paranoia.
budullewraagh Posted August 22, 2004 Posted August 22, 2004 What am I supposed to do with this? OXIDIZE HIM! Quote: Originally Posted by Sayonara³ What am I supposed to do with this? Please pass it along to newbie. I'm not sure why budullewraagh wanted YOU to have it. If he hasn't figured out by now where you stand on forum trolling, he needs to reread a LOT. Reading newbie's posts is like watching The O'Reilly Factor. What he can't understand he ignores, what he disagrees with he doesn't listen to, and what he believes in he believes in sacredly, sheltering those beliefs from any further evaluation, inspection or criticism. This is the greatest mistake scientific reasoning can make. Nothing is ever exactly the way you want it to be, no matter how well-informed you believe yourself to be. Supporting troops who are in the middle of horrific conflict while not supporting the governmental and corporate decisions that put them there are a big part of Michael Moore's message, IMO. I deplore the kind of debate tactics that allow trollers to impugn our patriotism by saying we don't support the soldiers if we don't support the war they are fighting. John Kerry is facing a similar attack right now on his Vietnam stance. In too many people's minds the two seem inseperable, but we need to remember that government is a dangerous servant and a horrible master when it declares war on fellow humans. Iraq is not our enemy, Afghanistan is not our enemy. Terrorism is, and we make it stronger with unthinking paranoia. amen
Thales Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Hooray for the logical beings! People like you guys give me hope...
Chem-Maniac Posted August 24, 2004 Posted August 24, 2004 been to the U.S. for one year, as an exchange student(98/99) and must say Americans are really nice and cool people(I'm serious!!). Back in Germany I must confess I was even more american than the avarage American. And then came Bush and his election. I really hate to use such terms but in this case I have to: IT PISSED ME OF!! Well, you might wonder why,since the whole thing is actually none of my business. But hey, I feeld batrayed, just like many Americans did. Remember what Bush did to the German-American relationship.Some people I know, who were as exchange students in the US at that time, had to live through hell(you know, mobbing and stuff...). Fahrenheit 9/11 shows what Family Bush is all about..., MONEY, that's all. Course Moore cut some things out and included some other here and there, but that doesn't really matter, since everything he presented are statistical and non statistical facts. To all Americans: Please vote for Kerry. Of course he is not perfect(is there a perfect president? Can anything be perfect? NO!), but believe me, the world is breathing for a bushfree government.
budullewraagh Posted August 24, 2004 Posted August 24, 2004 amen! good to see you here, chem-maniac. i have relatives who bear the name schwartzentruber, and i long to go to the fatherland someday. how is it over there?
blike Posted August 24, 2004 Posted August 24, 2004 I haven't seen anyone respond to the criticisms of Moore put forth yet. Moore is a documented liar [as in intentionally presenting a false statement as truth (a concept which is apparently beyond his comprehension, judging by his appearance with O'Reilly at the DNC)]. I don't know how universal the support for Moore by the left is, but I am somewhat disheartened by the amount of apparent support he receives from armchair liberals. When I walked out of the theater (sporting my blatantly republican shirt ), I was horrified at how many democrats thought God had just handed down the 10 commandments.
newbie Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 I haven't seen anyone respond to the criticisms of Moore put forth yet. Moore is a documented liar [as in intentionally presenting a false statement as truth (a concept which is apparently beyond his comprehension, judging by his appearance with O'Reilly at the DNC)']. I don't know how universal the support for Moore by the left is, but I am somewhat disheartened by the amount of apparent support he receives from armchair liberals. When I walked out of the theater (sporting my blatantly republican shirt ), I was horrified at how many democrats thought God had just handed down the 10 commandments. Well maybe you will have more luck, I am growing tired of all 4 of them. I am always the one who doesn't listen or the troll. Its sad but they are the ones that don't get it not me. Oh well time to let it go, after all I'm just the American what do I know right?
budullewraagh Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 Moore is a documented liar but his facts were checked and they were all valid, accurate facts. we all have lied in the past. he didn't lie in this film. newbie, don't post if you don't have anything to support your blind statements.
newbie Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 but his facts were checked and they were all valid' date=' accurate facts. we all have lied in the past. he didn't lie in this film. newbie, don't post if you don't have anything to support your blind statements.[/quote'] Excuse me you need to check yourself, I have supported my statements and shown yours to be flawed. I don't have anything else to tell you. You need to stop posting to me now.
budullewraagh Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 or so you think. apparently you lack common sense and a keen eye for reading. you need to end your slander now.
atinymonkey Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 I haven't seen anyone respond to the criticisms of Moore put forth yet. Moore is a documented liar. I suppose I see him more as a satirist. He uses random facts to lead you down a train of thought, very rarely does he make direct accusations. In that respect he is using politicians tools against them, as very little he says is not true. A lot of what he implies is not true, but you can't sue over implications. I would have thought that the US would be immensely proud to have one of the major global political satirists. We used to have a whole army of satirists, but the UK has run dry of them recently. Ah well.
jordan Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 but his facts were checked and they were all valid, accurate facts. we all have lied in the past. he didn't lie in this film. Are you blind to the bias of the film though? He uses accurate facts but that still doesn't mean everything he says is right. He leaves out critical "facts". He words other "facts" funny. I don't mean to say all his points are invalid, but honestly, you seem to be taking this as though it's your bible that can't ever be wrong. It's not really debatable: Moore will doctor the movie to swing to his side. And he really pushes it far to his side. Just be aware that everything he says is not as simple as he makes it out to be. He is one man relying on his oppinions rather than a whole team in Washington relying on the best inteligence reports in the nation.
Sayonara Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 I find it funny (as in amusing) that when the politicians at the head of the parties you support do the same thing (on a daily basis, as part of their jobs), it's "okay". As for the "whole team in Washington relying on the best inteligence reports in the nation", it's been known for a couple of months now that they were doing anything but that.
Phi for All Posted August 25, 2004 Author Posted August 25, 2004 I don't mean to say all his points are invalid, but honestly, you seem to be taking this as though it's your bible that can't ever be wrong. It's not really debatable: Moore will doctor the movie to swing to his side.I don't recall a single Moore supporter here saying that the movie's truths are sacred. It is definitely a work that comes from a distinctive point of view. And if you watch Fox News or any of their editorial shows that supposedly give an unbiased version of today's events, then Moore's point of view is desperately needed.
jordan Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 Phi, the quote in my post was: but his facts were checked and they were all valid, accurate facts. we all have lied in the past. he didn't lie in this film. That sounds like he holds it pretty sacred to me. And what I was trying to say is that no he didn't lie by the dictionary deffinition of lying, but he sure can distort the facts pretty far. And I'm sure budullewraagh would be quick to point out the bias of FoxNews to me as every Moore supported does. I was just concerned from his statement that he believes Moore didn't lie to him. I find it funny (as in amusing) that when the politicians at the head of the parties you support do the same thing (on a daily basis, as part of their jobs), it's "okay". Sorry Sayo, but I don't know what else to go by. I honestly don't believe anyone on this forum is more qualified to talk about the state of the nation's economy than Bush's team. He might not know how to react to the information he has, but he knows more about what's happening than you. I've got to trust him over most everyone else I know. As a side note, can I be banned from posting in this forum anymore. It tends to work out to an arguement between me vs. Phi and Sayo a lot. I can't resist posting sometimes and blike's not on at the same time I am for the most part to help so I'm just getting in over my head again.
Sayonara Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 Sorry Sayo, but I don't know what else to go by. I honestly don't believe anyone on this forum is more qualified to talk about the state of the nation's economy than Bush's team. He might not know how to react to the information he has, but he knows more about what's happening than you. I've got to trust him over most everyone else I know. Don't trust either, don't support either - it's fairly obvious that regardless of the quality of information they have access to, both parties have an agenda and could benefit themselves by misleading you. Given that you have access to the source information, you're capable of drawing your own conclusions. I am not sure what Bush knows (compared to me) has to do with what I said. I was laughing at the dichotomy in the reaction that people have to these things, not to what was actually being said. It's the same old "you're either with us or against us" nonsense that seems to be indoctrinated into Americans from a very young age.
blike Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 but his facts were checked and they were all valid, accurate facts. we all have lied in the past. he didn't lie in this film. "On the day George W. Bush was inaugurated, tens of thousands of Americans poured into the streets of DC in one last attempt to claim what had been taken from them...No President had ever witnessed such a thing on his inauguration day." < FALSE "The plan to have Bush get out of the limo for the traditional walk to the White House was scrapped." < FALSE ""It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis." < FALSE "out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq." < FALSE I suppose I see him more as a satirist. He uses random facts to lead you down a train of thought, very rarely does he make direct accusations. In that respect he is using politicians tools against them, as very little he says is not true. A lot of what he implies is not true, but you can't sue over implications. Indeed, and Michael Moore implies a lot more than he says. Much of F9/11 was implications, with statements such as "perhaps" and "maybe". The problem is that often times what he is implying is blatantly wrong, but he can't be nailed for it because he did not directly state it. You're right though, he's playing a politicians game on that one. And if you watch Fox News or any of their editorial shows that supposedly give an unbiased version of today's events, then Moore's point of view is desperately needed. Just because Republicans happen to be right most of the time doesn't mean Fox news is biased [jk about that]. Don't you think Fox is balanced out by the other major liberal networks?
Sayonara Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 Don't you think Fox is balanced out by the other major liberal networks? In order for balance to be achieved, wouldn't Fox viewers have to watch the other networks? There's no point having balanced views spread across different stations if people are only watching one or the other. That creates an argumentative population, not a well-informed one.
jordan Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 Good point Sayo. Still though, trying to compare the bias of a movie to a 24 hour new network is a bit tricky. Obviously, some hosts on Fox News are bound to be more biased than others. The bias of the station as a whole can change from time to time depending on the mood of the nation. Moore had 2+ hours of film to keep as unbiased as possible but chose the road of the lefts. I think it would've gone better if he had kept it more unbiased. All he did through this is futher the resolve of both sides. By appealing to the extreme leftists, he did nothing to convince the rights that he needs.
Phi for All Posted August 25, 2004 Author Posted August 25, 2004 As a side note, can I be banned from posting in this forum anymore. It tends to work out to an arguement between me vs. Phi and Sayo a lot. I can't resist posting sometimes and blike's not on at the same time I am for the most part to help so I'm just getting in over my head again.You may think you're in over your head but I really respect the way you present yourself. I may not agree with your politics, but I wish I was as authoritative and well-spoken as you when I was your age. You care about something enough to voice your opinions instead of just hiding under a rock.
blike Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 Good point sayo, but I was just stating that I believe both sides are already clearly represented in the mainstream news media. That doesn't mean each viewer is getting balanced news though.
jordan Posted August 25, 2004 Posted August 25, 2004 You may think you're in over your head but I really respect the way you present yourself. I may not agree with your politics, but I wish I was as authoritative and well-spoken as you when I was your age. You care about something enough to voice your opinions instead of just hiding under a rock. Thanks Phi. I'm just trying to pick up as much as I can and hopefuly, one day, maybe find an arguement where you or Sayo are on the same side as me.
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