Space Ends

[spaceends]

Does space go on forever,

 

or does space end?

 

There is a "big" difference, if any way you go space goes on forever or if any way you go space ends.

 

What is a "big" difference between those two ideas?

 

If space goes on forever any way you go, space does not have a shape.

If space ends any way you go, then space can take a shape.

 

Space can take a shape, if space ends.

 

There is another "big" difference whether space ends or not. Can you think of what that is?

[ydoaPs]

If space goes on forever any way you go, space does not have a shape.

If space ends any way you go, then space can take a shape.

 

How so?

 

edit:

y=x^2 is infinite. Do you seriously claim that it has no shape?

[mooeypoo]

If space goes on forever any way you go, space does not have a shape.

Really?

 

If you go on the surface of a sphere on and on and on and on, whichever way you go it NEVER ENDS. And yet, it's a sphere, with a clear shape.

[Genecks]

Shapes don't exist out of theory.

You could do that whole point in space vs. circle thing, though.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Genecks

[spaceends]

are you trying to say the universe is a sphere?

or what shape is your "universe" in

 

show me all the evidence that space goes on forever and reopen my other thread

 

 

Really?

 

If you go on the surface of a sphere on and on and on and on, whichever way you go it NEVER ENDS. And yet, it's a sphere, with a clear shape.

[mooeypoo]

are you trying to say the universe is a sphere?

or what shape is your "universe" in

No, I'm trying to show you that the universe can have a shape even if it's infinite.

 

show me all the evidence that space goes on forever and reopen my other thread

I will not reopen a thread that started with a childish post attempting to get people riled up rather than debate. We are debating the subject here, it seems, you just need to be open minded for a debate rather than for a lecture on your part.

 

Here is a good article summarizing the issue of inifinite/finite debate and the shape of the universe: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

 

~moo

[spaceends]

if space ends any way you go , then space can take a shape

if space goes on forever, then space does not have a shape

 

************************

 

Evidence !

 

I want evidence!

 

Most, if not all of you go along with the idea

that space goes on forever and ever

 

and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever

etc.

 

I want evidence!

 

Robert Lavelle

[toastywombel]

This is ridiculous. Is it really necessary to copy-paste "and ever" over and over again?

[mooeypoo]

if space ends any way you go , then space can take a shape

if space goes on forever, then space does not have a shape

 

************************

 

Evidence !

 

I want evidence!

 

Most, if not all of you go along with the idea

that space goes on forever and ever

 

and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever

etc.

 

I want evidence!

 

Robert Lavelle

We are having a discussion and we're asking you questions to help you understand how the above is just not true.

 

If you continue insisting putting your hands on your ears and post childish repetitive posts (are you stomping your feet on the ground while you're typing, too?) then you will be treated as a troll, and the discussion will end.

 

Are you interested in actually getting answers or are you just here to make a fuss?

 

I gave you a link explaining your question. If you want, you should relate to it and we can continue from there. Also, there are a few other threads in the forum talking about the shape of the universe. You might want to go over them.

 

Please go over our rules. We are open for discussions, but we won't sit here idle if your sole intention is to yell and scream when you don't get your way.

 

Now. Martin is one of our physics experts. He has posted multiple posts relating to this issue. You can find some of them:

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showpost.php?p=442588&postcount=2

And a discussion about whether or not space ends: http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6390

 

And from his signature link, you can leaern a lot too:

The shape of the universe: http://www.einstein-online.info/en/spotlights/shape_of_space/index.html

 

Read a bit, see if you still think you should post these repetitive segments.

 

~moo

Edited December 26, 2009 by mooeypoo

[spaceends]

"""The expanding universe"""

 

I Know I Know how much most if not all of you like to think of the universe as being all the matter and energy (stars and planets etc) in space and totally trying to leave out the time part because you don't understand the time part so you think you can just leave it out.

 

The Universe is all matter energy TIME and space.

 

What the universe really is much more then all the stars and planets in space,

the universe is all the past present and future.

 

Now show me your u*n*i*v*e*r*s*e

 

 

 

 

No, I'm trying to show you that the universe can have a shape even if it's infinite.

 

 

I will not reopen a thread that started with a childish post attempting to get people riled up rather than debate. We are debating the subject here, it seems, you just need to be open minded for a debate rather than for a lecture on your part.

 

Here is a good article summarizing the issue of inifinite/finite debate and the shape of the universe: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

 

~moo

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Show me your evidence!

 

That space goes on forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever etc etc etc

 

Show me your evidence!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is ridiculous. Is it really necessary to copy-paste "and ever" over and over again?

[mooeypoo]

No one is saying that the universe goes on "forever and ever". You just seem to not really care what is said.

[Nikola]

You have to define "space" before you can determine if it has a limit. I mean, how can u say something has a beginning or an end that you really don't understand in the first place? What defines the universe? If “space” does end somewhere, then who is to say that whatever is beyond that is not just another form of “space“? The human mind has nothing to compare such an idea with, therefore it cannot be proven or disproved. It is like asking, what happens when you die. Everyone has theories, but asking for a definitive answer is ridiculous.

[jackson33]

mooeypoo; Spaceends, under that user name has been banned several times from other forums, generally coming back under another handle. It would be nice if you handled you regular posters, with such kid gloves. Have a nice day...

[ydoaPs]

It would be nice if you handled you regular posters, with such kid gloves. Have a nice day...

In my experience, she does until such a poster trolls beyond her tolerance. THEN she sharpens her claws and rides her pwny into battle.

[mooeypoo]

I try to give the benefit of the doubt. I also try not to take finite decisions such as a ban on my own, and share them with the rest of the staff.

 

Seeing as it's holiday-season, we take our time. I don't work in the forum and I don't get paid, when I have time, I come here and I do the best job I can. I don't quite have "deadlines". Neither one of the staff does. Specially not during holiday season.

 

Though I am not sure I understand where the sudden hostility comes from.. if you have any actual complaints about my role as a moderator, you can address them to the administrators.

 

~moo

[pywakit]

At the risk of annoying anyone, I would like to weigh in here. Mind?

 

Last winter, when I was discussing my model with Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson ( name thrown in to lend credibility ... lol ... but I actually was ) I made the comment that 'space was infinite'. His response was "It is assumed to be so, but we have no proof." My rebuttal ( roughly ) was "We have Einstein's math, corroborating experiments, and observations. Einstein said space is uniform, unless disturbed by mass. Logically it makes sense that our 'local' universe would exist in curved space because all that mass/gravity is curving it. But why would anyone think that space only exists for the pleasure of our 'local' universe?"

 

He said ... "Because we can't see it. If we can't see it we cannot logically claim it to be fact. But, as I said, most scientists assume it to be so." ( infinite )

 

So at least Dr. Tyson and I agree in 'opinion'. Lol. But I think we have more than enough evidence to claim infinite space as a reasonable conclusion ... and a good part of a working model of the universe.

 

It seems so clear to me. Space Is Uniform. That means it is 'the same'. Homogenous. Isotropic. I see infinity as a 3 dimensional straight-line grid with all lines extending to infinity. There is no shape, because shape has limits.

 

I was 6 years old when I read this 'space is uniform' thing. I was very curious about the universe, and from what I already knew ... it seemed obvious that the universe would have no end. So Einstein's math just 'confirmed' what I already knew. It was a little distressing when I kept seeing 'the' universe described as a 'curved' finite structure. The very idea that space would simply cease to exist because 'our' local universe wasn't there to 'occupy' it seemed completely irrational.

 

 

It assumed therefore that our little home was the only universe that has ever existed. That nothing else exists except for 'us'. That when we are gone, nothing will ever exist again. This isn't logic. This is religion.

 

"We are special. We are here for a reason."

 

"Oh really? Says who?"

 

"Uhhhh. Well, 'we' do."

 

"Ohhhhhh. Sure. I get it."

 

Space is uniform. We can twist logic to placate our 300,000 year old ego, but it doesn't change the fact. We have mountains of evidence that space is uniform. Isotropic. None that space ends at our borders ... whether or not we can see it.

 

Within our local universe, our straight lines are an illusion, because gravity is curving space. So to say we can go for infinity in a straight line yet never go beyond the finite bubble is also an illusion. The lines in our local universe aren't 'straight'. They just look straigtht.

 

( edit )

 

To take the weakest possible stance we can rationally and logically say ... "Infinite space is inferred, while finite space is not."

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Thousands of years ago, when Man began to seriously contemplate his universe, he wondered how big it was. There were a host of reasons to come to the conclusion that the 'physical universe' ... the one 'he' could see must be finite. Meta-physical? Not so finite.

 

The ego gene was a great survival trait. We could plainly see that we were far superior creatures to all other species. A strong piece of evidence for our 'special' status. But the ego gene has it's drawbacks, too. It clouds reason, and allows us to formulate concepts ... like logic ... that we unconsciously shape to suit our desires.

 

Now, many thousand of years later ... 'science' ( being less than a few hundred years old ) has royally decreed ... that our current scientific methodology is a 'perfect' tool for scientific inquiry. And we have never looked back. Why would we? Look how well it has worked! This logic is flawed, of course. Look how badly it has failed, too.

 

The point I am trying to get across is ... we have never had a good reason to believe we are the only intelligent life in the universe, or that our universe is finite, or the only one. In fact, true logic ... unadulterated by ego ... says that if it's possible for us to exist, then it's equally possible 'we' ( and I do mean we. Exactly the same as us ) could exist other places. That other universes could exist in other places.

 

There never WAS a good, scientific reason to believe that our universe was finite. We looked around us and just 'decreed' that it was. I mean, it had to be. Why else would we be here? There HAS to be a reason. We are so SPECIAL! Just Ego. Lol.

 

When I was a kid, the 'universe was 'closed', like now. It consisted of the MW with around 250M to about 2B stars. There were maybe a 'few thousand' other galaxies, and a few things we couldn't identify. And science took the 'logical' stance that this could be 'all there was'. On the otherhand, there could be all kinds of 'anything is possible' stuff.

 

As the universe threw it's arms open to us, we realized that our thinking was a mite small. And incorrect. Not only was it obviously bigger by several orders of magnitude, but all those 'possibilities' turned out to be non-existent. The universe was essentially the same wherever we looked. Just like it was when we looked 50 years ago ... when anything was possible. And even though we can see 'infinitely' farther than we could before, and found none of these fantastic 'possibilities' ... the mantra remains the same.

 

ANYTHING is possible beyond our field of view. And here is the really amusing hypocrisy. We claim ( chaos theory, Heisenberg principle ) that anything is possible because the math says so. There's a CHANCE. Lol. Our universe has INFINITE possibilities. So all things can happen!

 

Funny. How did you get infinite possibilities from a finite universe?

 

It's past time we change our thinking. It's time to come to the rational conclusion that we exist in a finite, expanding bubble of gravity within a universe that is actually infinite ... until proven to be finite. Not the other way around.

 

Moo, you said this is to be a debate, not a lecture. I hope I am not crossing the line. I just thought making some reasonable observations might be in order. I think all my statements have been truthful and accurate.

 

Could be wrong, though. Lol.

 

Wish I was more eloquent.

Edited December 28, 2009 by pywakit
Consecutive posts merged.

[michel123456]

pykawit wrote

Our universe has INFINITE possibilities. So all things can happen!

I disagree. I think that "infinite possibilities" is not coherent with the laws of physics. We have been showed by Mother Nature that things have to obey (??how is that possible???) laws.

I would prefer to define the Universe as the sum of non-contradictory possibilities.

 

But we are missing the point. "Space" is different from "the Universe". Or isn't it?

[swansont]

Considering the OP's reluctance to engage in a reasonable discussion on the topic, it has been closed. Any other member wishing to discuss the topic further may use one of the existing threads mentioned by mooeypoo or start a new one, if appropriate.