Capital Punishment

[blike]

I’m not ever sure the difference between revenge and justice is adequately explored when discussing the death penalty and don’t want the difference to undermine the quality of the thread later on.

Very good point. Is justice in and of itself a sort of revenge, or is revenge a sort of justice, or neither? The terms have very different connotations, but are they two words for the same concept? Revenge, to me, seems to be something that is carried out for personal satisfaction or recompense and often goes above and beyond the initiating offense. Justice on the other hand, is something that is carried out for social reasons. For families of victims, justice may become a sort of personal revenge. But for society, it ensures that people are treated in accordance with their behavior. That's how I see it, but I havn't thoroughly explored the issue.

[Dave]

The purpose of posting that comment was an attempt to discern whether you disagree with the way the death penalty is administered (i.e. it's flawed because innocent people can be executed), or whether executing someone for murder is inherently wrong[/i']. Those are two separate issues, but it wasn't clear from your initial post.

 

To clarify my standpoint: I personally believe that the death penalty has no place in what we laughably call a "modern world". In that post, I was just basically saying that even if I did agree with the principle of the sentence, it is impossible to implement in a justice system that cannot ever be 100% sure of a person's guilt.

[pulkit]

Though this is deviating from the original post, I am sorry for that, but exactly what portion of Europe still enforces the death penalty ? and do all states in the US have the death penalty ?

[atinymonkey]

Justice on the other hand, is something that is carried out for social reasons. For families of victims, justice may become a sort of personal revenge. But for society, it ensures that people are treated in accordance with their behavior. That's how I see it, but I havn't thoroughly explored the issue.

 

That's about how I see it, ensuring people get what they should be given. Clarifying it avoids all this 'cut out their lungs' nonsense and the other reactionary gibbering.

 

Though this is deviating from the original post, I am sorry for that, but exactly what portion of Europe still enforces the death penalty ? and do all states in the US have the death penalty ?

 

The only major countrys with the death penalty are China, the US and Japan. Although it's worth pointing out it's very rare in Japan and China is using it as a tool for human rights abuse.

 

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

 

Interestingly, China has allegedly adopted YT's idea of harvesting body parts. Because it's a rather loathsome and a travesty of justice, amnesty have something to say about it.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/world/china/

 

State by state, US death penalty:-

 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=121&scid=11

[pulkit]

The only major countrys with the death penalty are China, the US and Japan. Although it's worth pointing out it's very rare in Japan and China is using it as a tool for human rights abuse.

 

I must add that here in India it is still prevelant. Why only last month a couple of people were sentenced.

[atinymonkey]

Yes, sorry about that. I don't quite know why I didn't class India as a major country, bit of an oversight.

[bloodhound]

bit of prejudice maybe?

[Sayonara]

harvesting them for spare parts and blood (whilst keeping them alive and well) so that they may contribute to saving the lives of the innocent and small children, or further victims of crime that need certain human components to remain alive, is a logical solution.

A solution to what?

 

I think you might create more problems than you solve with that one.

[YT2095]

a solution to the Death penalty, they get punished but not killed (so that`s a good thing), their punishment benefits others, as opposed to nothing being gained (so that`s a bonus too).

 

and with regard to the link ATM provided, AI should be outraged, not at the organ harvesting part, but for the reasons these people end up on death row in the 1`st place, I agree, it`s perfectly loathesome.

 

there is the other side that would be that IF they`re doomed to die anyway, and there`s no political pressure that will or can change that, then organ harvesting to save a life isn`t a bad thing, without doing it, you could well be condeming 2 or more people to death by inaction!

[NavajoEverclear]

I only addressed why I think the death penalty, in theory, is accepable and the only way to serve justice in certain situations.

 

How do you mean 'justice'?--- what i mean by that more later in the post

 

Personally, I don’t think it achieves any real purpose. Killing a murderer does not bring his victim back to life, it simply ends another life

 

True, but what purpose does it achieve to keep them alive. What purpose are you assuming it is ATTEMPTING to achieve? I think the answer would vary from case to case, but i explained my purpose, and in a sec i'll repeat it

 

Very good point. Is justice in and of itself a sort of revenge, or is revenge a sort of justice, or neither?

 

In my mind it has nothing to do with either, maybe the justice, if you can find away to seperate it from emotional connotations. To me its just a matter of common sense. Many, probably most, of the people who support the life sentence over death say that they consider it a GREATER punishment than death. As i've said, tho the title of the thread might mislead you, i don't consider capital punishment, to be punishment of any form. To me death sentence is completely disconnected from trying to issue what the killer deserves. What he deserves cannot be determined, to do so accurately would require us formulating some formula of morals, and precisely how individual atonement can dealt---- which is impossible, therefore would be a load of bullshit. Death is simply for the protection of society, which imprisonment may also serve, but with the addition of a lot of waste on pointlessly preserving an empty life.

[atinymonkey]

bit of prejudice maybe?

 

Probably, it occurs in everybody. The trick is to recognise it.

 

True' date=' but what purpose does it achieve to keep them alive. What purpose are you assuming it is ATTEMPTING to achieve? I think the answer would vary from case to case, but i explained my purpose, and in a sec i'll repeat it

[/quote']

 

I don't think it varies at all. A prison system is either built towards rehabilitation or punishment.

[NavajoEverclear]

I don't think it varies at all. A prison system is either built towards rehabilitation or punishment.

 

Well maybe my opinion is based on some unconscious bias, but i think what i'm talking about is different than punishment. Isn't punishment basically the same as revenge? Wheras what i'm talking about is simple termination of a person uncapable of rehabilitation, no emotional motivation for serving justice--- simply seems like the most logical option if you seperate reasoning from the primitive drive for vengence.

[atinymonkey]

Hmmm. At what point would you, personally, class a human life as worthless?

[NavajoEverclear]

Again i resort to saying, thank God its not my choice. Tho i guess in democracy i do have more influence than possible otherwise. I keep on forgetting these ideal concepts, wouldn't work in the reality of uncertainty, which is where we live.

Perhaps we shouldn't try to determine if we know we cant, where its a case of life and death.------ seems like a waste of time after arguing the opposite point so long, but i think that fact makes my new decision very solid.

[atinymonkey]

I tend to agree. We don't personally have the choice to make, to some degree that means we have to trust the government to manage the legal system adequately. As we need to trust the government policy, the citizens of countries with the death penalty will naturally not agree with citizens of countries without the penalty.