Electromagnetic radiation and steady state of hydrogen atom

[swansont]

Then I refer you back to my challenge to deduce that atomic structure of Hydrogen, including the Hyperfine and Zeeman splittings, with the ground state having a nonzero angular momentum. Predict what the electric dipole moment should be. Things that have to be any part of a classical model of Hydrogen. Compare those numbers to experiment. That's what science is. Go do it.

[Strange]

 

The "two puzzle cloud" that deny classical theory is a mistake.

 

Just saying that doesn't help. You need to show that classical theory can reproduce all the same results as quantum theory (i.e. that the predictions of classical theory matches reality).

 

 

I insist It is serious mistake for us to deny Classical theories.

 

You can insist on whatever you want. Without evidence, no one is going to take you seriously.

[xiaojun]

Discussion on the ground state of the hydrogen atom, there is a different from the mainstream theory here.

link deleted

[swansont]

Discussion on the ground state of the hydrogen atom, there is a different from the mainstream theory here.

link deleted

 

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Moderator Note

Rule 7 says not to post links without supporting discussion (you've been warned about this before) and posting your pet theory in someone else's thread is hijacking. Don't do this again, and don't respond to this in the thread.

[Jeremy0922]

Then I refer you back to my challenge to deduce that atomic structure of Hydrogen, including the Hyperfine and Zeeman splittings, with the ground state having a nonzero angular momentum. Predict what the electric dipole moment should be. Things that have to be any part of a classical model of Hydrogen. Compare those numbers to experiment. That's what science is. Go do it.

 

Hyperfine and Zeeman splitting are the phenomenon of spectrum of atom. The atom spectrum is the experimental result of electromagnetic radiation caused by exciting atoms.

1. It is necessary for the outer field to excite atom;

2. The determine result of spectrum is caused by a large number of exciting atoms.

By classical orbit conception, it is easy to understand the magnetic moments caused by orbital movement of charged particles in the atoms. There are two rotation directions, clockwise and counterclockwise referring to the outer field, then the magnetic moments interacts with the outer field are different for these two situation. The interaction is the reason to occur hyperfine and splitting of the atom spectrum.

a) If the outer field has only the effect to provide supplements to balance energy loss caused by moving charged particles at higher level eigen-orbits. We could get the hyperfine structure of spectrum;

b) When the outer field not only has the effect of balance energy loss, also has the effect to change the eigen-orbit, we could observe the spectrum splitting, including Zeeman effect and Stark effect under the appropriate conditions of outer electromagnetic field.

 

Inaddition, if the electron rotates along the orbit face to face of the proton, will spins a circle after a orbit period referring to center of mass coordinate of the atom. the effect by the magnetic moment should also be consider for above situations.

 

That is my initial answer about your questions.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Jeremy0922

[ajb]

Can you at least outline a calculation here? We can all consult a QM book for the quantum mechanics descriptions, but what about your classical calculations?

[Jeremy0922]

Can you at least outline a calculation here? We can all consult a QM book for the quantum mechanics descriptions, but what about your classical calculations?

 

It will takes some time to do them, but I think the mathematical method should be consistent with that of quantum mechanics.

[swansont]

a) If the outer field has only the effect to provide supplements to balance energy loss caused by moving charged particles at higher level eigen-orbits. We could get the hyperfine structure of spectrum;

 

That field is not a source of energy that you can use to replenish losses, even in classical physics. And continual energy loss from moving orbits is not observed. Only the quantized energy from transitions between states.

 

 

b) When the outer field not only has the effect of balance energy loss, also has the effect to change the eigen-orbit, we could observe the spectrum splitting, including Zeeman effect and Stark effect under the appropriate conditions of outer electromagnetic field.

 

Inaddition, if the electron rotates along the orbit face to face of the proton, will spins a circle after a orbit period referring to center of mass coordinate of the atom. the effect by the magnetic moment should also be consider for above situations.

 

That is my initial answer about your questions.

 

It will takes some time to do them, but I think the mathematical method should be consistent with that of quantum mechanics.

 

 

Yes, do the calculation. That's what I have been asking for.

[Jeremy0922]

 

That field is not a source of energy that you can use to replenish losses, even in classical physics. And continual energy loss from moving orbits is not observed. Only the quantized energy from transitions between states.

 

The static field can not , but the periodic or variale field can do it.

[swansont]

The static field can not , but the periodic or variale field can do it.

You don't have a varying field. The field from the nucleus is static.

[Jeremy0922]

You don't have a varying field. The field from the nucleus is static.

 

It is necessory for a varying field for the elecron to excite to high energy eigen-orbit, and the varying field is produced by moving ion in the spectrum experiment.

[swansont]

 

It is necessory for a varying field for the elecron to excite to high energy eigen-orbit, and the varying field is produced by moving ion in the spectrum experiment.

 

You are talking about a different situation then. That is only present during the excitation.

[Jeremy0922]

 

You are talking about a different situation then. That is only present during the excitation.

If there is no outer field, the electron is at the groound state, and we can not observe the spectrum.

[swansont]

If there is no outer field, the electron is at the groound state, and we can not observe the spectrum.

 

Where is the "outer field" when the electron is in the excited state, before it decays?

[Jeremy0922]

 

Where is the "outer field" when the electron is in the excited state, before it decays?

For example, when the outer field was provided by moving ion in the spectrum experiment, the electron was excited to the eigen-orbit by that field.

[swansont]

For example, when the outer field was provided by moving ion in the spectrum experiment, the electron was excited to the eigen-orbit by that field.

 

AFTER the atom is in the excited state, where is the external field?

[Jeremy0922]

 

AFTER the atom is in the excited state, where is the external field?

After the atom is excited in higher energy eigen-orbit, the external field is varying, and could exsist or disapear.

[swansont]

After the atom is excited in higher energy eigen-orbit, the external field is varying, and could exsist or disapear.

 

If it's gone, how does the atom remain in that state without radiating, for some period of time? Classically, it should do this. Your classical model has to explain why it does not.

[Jeremy0922]

 

If it's gone, how does the atom remain in that state without radiating, for some period of time? Classically, it should do this. Your classical model has to explain why it does not.

The atom can not stay in that state, and will go back to the ground state while the electromagnetic radiation was produced Edited July 27, 2014 by Jeremy0922

[swansont]

The atom can not stay in that state, and will go back to the ground state while the electromagnetic radiation was produced

 

The problem is the way it produces the radiation, which is not consistent with classical theory (which predicts continuous emission, and is not what we see)

[Jeremy0922]

The problem is the way it produces the radiation, which is not consistent with classical theory (which predicts continuous emission, and is not what we see)

The resonance of the orbit vibrates with a frequency.

[swansont]

The resonance of the orbit vibrates with a frequency.

Meaningless. Come up with a model. Do some actual science.

[Jeremy0922]

Meaningless. Come up with a model. Do some actual science.

 

You can find the model in my manuscript and GED paper, in the openning post of this thread.

[swansont]

You can find the model in my manuscript and GED paper, in the openning post of this thread.

 

I don't see where you predict energy levels or discuss the radiation details, e.g. the lifetime of the excited state.

[Jeremy0922]

I don't see where you predict energy levels or discuss the radiation details, e.g. the lifetime of the excited state.

 

More research work are needed to solve your question. the main works I have done is as follow:

 

The hydrogen atom is a two-particle electromagnetic system controlled by the interaction between the electron and the proton. So a reliable description about electromagnetic phenomena in it should depend on treatment of the electromagnetic interaction of the periodically changing electric current elements caused by

moving charged particles. As a result of pinch effect of the induced fields and interaction of displacement currents, the distribution and propagation of induced field are sharply restricted with increase of frequency, and the induced electric field could be pinched in a narrow tubular space, and at higher frequency it could spread

on a bended path near the charged particle . The ground state of the hydrogen atom is a unique steady state, the balance state of mechanics, in which the radiation reaction in one charged particle is counteracted by the action of induced field caused by the other. For an isolated hydrogen atom, the ground state is the natural state ; any lower energy orbit is prohibited by action of radiation field, and the higher energy orbit will go back to ground state because of spontaneous radiation. Orbit closure is a necessary condition for any steady orbit to satisfy. The modal response is the steady state of hydrogen atomic orbits. The electron jumps from the ground state to a modal orbit with high discrete energy by resonant absorption. The modal equation of the hydrogen atom was deduced by means of standing wave analysis, and selecting the ground orbit of the hydrogen atom as basic reference to describe the other modal orbits, then the modal equation was changed to the same mathematical form with the Schrödinger equation.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Jeremy0922