Obama to Abandon Human Space Flight?

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SpaceShipOne was a suborbital vehicle. It could not orbit, period. It spent a few minutes "in space" (above 100 km altitude). SpaceShipTwo will similarly be a sub-orbital vehicle. It will take very brief ventures into space. If it succeeds, Virgin Galactic and Scaled Composites plan to build SpaceShipThree, which will be an orbital vehicle -- and it will go at Mach 25.

 

If you want to enter LEO you need to be going Mach 25, period. That is orbital speed.

 

With the SS1 reference I was talking about the idea of having a more airplane-like first stage launch vehicle which can carry the second stage payload and get it up to a proper altitude and starting velocity.

 

How far could that concept be expanded?

[D H]

With the SS1 reference I was talking about the idea of having a more airplane-like first stage launch vehicle which can carry the second stage payload and get it up to a proper altitude and starting velocity.

 

How far could that concept be expanded?

SS2 will be a suborbital vehicle and will require a bizarre-looking aircraft as a first stage. Apparently, Virgin Galactic and Scaled Composites have scaled back their concepts for SS3. It will still be a suborbital vehicle.

 

Expanding the aircraft as a first stage concept to orbital vehicles would require significant advances in aviation technology and would require a severe violation of the KISS (keep it simple, stupid!) rule. The aircraft first stage would need to get to a significant fraction of orbital speed to make this approach feasible, and that in turn would require reliable scram jet technology. Scram jets are still in the experimental stage and are nowhere near being reliable and controllable (yet).

 

India has plans for a single stage to orbit vehicle that will switch from turbo jets to ram jets to scram jets to rockets. While in the scram jet mode it will collect oxygen from the atmosphere for subsequent use by the rocket. This is all in the drawing board stage for now. All this to avoid having a first stage!

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Expanding the aircraft as a first stage concept to orbital vehicles would require significant advances in aviation technology and would require a severe violation of the KISS (keep it simple, stupid!) rule. The aircraft first stage would need to get to a significant fraction of orbital speed to make this approach feasible, and that in turn would require reliable scram jet technology. Scram jets are still in the experimental stage and are nowhere near being reliable and controllable (yet).

 

What about FALCON and the X-51?

[D H]

What about FALCON and the X-51?

What about them? The Falcon project was cancelled, and the X-51 has yet to fly (first flight later this month).

 

Moreover, the X-51 will be dropped from an airplane. It is not the technology needed for a first stage. It might be able to get up to Mach 20. It will not attain orbital altitude or orbital speed.

 

Finally, don't forget that X designation. The "X" in X-51 means "experimental." That is exactly what I meant when I said that "Scram jets are still in the experimental stage and are nowhere near being reliable and controllable (yet)." Sometimes the X magic works, sometimes it doesn't.

[bascule]

What about them? The Falcon project was cancelled

 

Actually only parts of the FALCON project were cancelled. Research into the "Hypersonic Cruise Vehicle" will continue.

 

and the X-51 has yet to fly (first flight later this month). Moreover, the X-51 will be dropped from an airplane.

 

Well, this is what I'm talking about. The X-51 will be dropped from transport jet. This is another case of the hybrid strategy of using a first-stage jet vehicle followed by a second stage vehicle which cannot get up to the required altitude/velocity without the first stage vehicle.

 

Why can't the second stage vehicle have a scramjet and then transition to rocket propulsion?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Well, this is what I'm talking about. The X-51 will be dropped from transport jet. This is another case of the hybrid strategy of using a first-stage jet vehicle followed by a second stage vehicle which cannot get up to the required altitude/velocity without the first stage vehicle.

To be fair, it's really three stages. There's a rocket booster that has to get the scramjet to operational speed.

[The Bear's Key]

Whenever an ideology becomes involved (business/Government/IMO Science), hiring personnel, firing personnel, promotion of personnel, advisors chose (or not chose) IMO, the project becomes agenda oriented/driven.

 

You said there is a single-minded ideology driving this. Again I ask: what is it?

 

One leads to another, with an end result...That's not complicated.

Not a great answer, jackson33.

 

Perhaps the example below is what you mean?

 

http://www.ajc.com/business/the-original-flight-297-226738.html

The original Flight 297 e-mail

.....

Then I got this email from my good friend Tedd Petruna, a diver at the NBL facility at NASA who I used to work with. He happened to be on this same flight. In my opinion, the muslims are all getting very brave now, since they have one of their own in the White House.

[Moontanman]

Both conservatives and liberals us NASA as their whipping boy anytime they want to pretend to be saving money. The budget of NASA is a drop in the bucket when compared to the rest of the money the gov spends.

 

We wasted enough money on the Iraq war to colonies the moon or Mars or even build real space colonies in orbit around the sun. We bailed out greedy bankers to the tune of many times the budget of NASA. Go ahead and pretend that NASA is a significant part of the budget.

 

NASA has done some amazing things with so little money. Space is not the final frontier or some pie in the sky thing that doesn't matter, space is the high ground of the next war, the source of many new technologies that will boost our economy (if we are the ones developing it)

 

So much of our civilization depends on space, so much in the way of natural resources, unique manufacturing possibilities, it's criminal to not fund NASA or some type of space exploration and or exploitation of space.

 

Some one mentioned shutting down NASA to feed sub-Saharan Africa, that is just so much bullshit, completely eliminating NASA would make no difference what so ever in feeding Haiti or Africa or anyone else but it would have a huge negative impact on the world at large and on the USA.

 

We could increase NASA spending many times over with no impact on government spending. It's like me refusing buy three boxes of girl scout cookies and going back to two boxes to save enough money to pay the interest on my house.

 

Cutting back NASA is just politics for the thinking impaired, a way for politicians to show their constituents they are serious about cutting back spending and then spending many times that much on bullshit.

 

Exploitation of space is the next step in our civilization, so far we keep trying to crawl up the steps with our limbs hog tied. It's time to untie our civilization and walk up the steps, no one knows what is at the top of the steps but we know what is at the bottom and there just isn't enough for everyone there.

[Pangloss]

Just to be clear, I'm 100% in accord with the president about supporting private space ventures. I just think the flight of SpaceShipOne has given people an unfortunate misconception about how long it's going to be before SpaceShipTwelve flies past the dead ISS on its way to the The Great People's Orbital Free Trade Zone.

[D H]

Emphasis mine:

Well, this is what I'm talking about. The X-51 will be dropped from transport jet.

That will is the key. Huge chunks of scramjet technology are at TRL (technology readiness level) 3-4. TRL 6 (working prototype in a relevant environment) is deemed the starting point for what might be real as opposed to just another pipe dream technology. Scramjets are still at the just beyond pipe dream level -- and that is using scramjets for missile delivery. Using the technology for human flight represents another huge leap.

 

This is another case of the hybrid strategy of using a first-stage jet vehicle followed by a second stage vehicle which cannot get up to the required altitude/velocity without the first stage vehicle.

This is a case of a technology that cannot even start working without the first stage vehicle.

 

Why can't the second stage vehicle have a scramjet and then transition to rocket propulsion?

KISS. Think like an engineer.