Terrorist Engineers

[npts2020]

I recently read this article that terrorists are twice as likely to be engineers by training as anything else. The next closest training is Islamic studies at about half the rate. The writer conjectures that it may be because of lack of employment for engineers but there are lots of unemployed people. In my opinion, it has at least as much to do with the fact that an engineer is more likely to be able to act on a terrorist plan than some other random person. Could there also just be greater numbers of engineers?

[Sisyphus]

They correct for numbers of engineers, so it's not just that there are more of them.

 

I think it has a lot to do with temperment, which the article also mentions. What do religious fundamentalist ideology and the practice of engineering have in common? Strict application of inflexible rules, and lack of ambiguity, nuance, or interpretation. A desire to impose order.

[John Cuthber]

It's possible that lots of different groups become engineers, but only the engineers are actually able to do anything that brings them to the attention of the authorities.

There might be zillions of terrorists with English literature degrees, but writing iambic pentameter defaming the government doesn't get you arrested.

[timo]

My pulled-out-of-my-lower-back explanation is that people who are less social are over-proportionally likely to become engineers. Same goes for becoming a terrorist: Firstly, killing strangers is not exactly a social thing; secondly it's more tempting to trade your friends for the possibility of N virgins in paradise (or at least a post mortem headline in the newspaper) when you've got no friends in the first place.

[Sisyphus]

My pulled-out-of-my-lower-back explanation is that people who are less social are over-proportionally likely to become engineers. Same goes for becoming a terrorist: Firstly, killing strangers is not exactly a social thing; secondly it's more tempting to trade your friends for the possibility of N virgins in paradise (or at least a post mortem headline in the newspaper) when you've got no friends in the first place.

 

There is probably some truth to the stereotype of the socially awkward engineer, but I don't buy this explanation. For one thing, socially awkward /= antisocial in the sense of being ant-society. Second, the same stereotype applies to scientists, and there don't seem to be any terrorist scientists. And third, killing strangers actually is a social thing, in the sense of terrorist organizations being tightly knit.

[InigoMontoya]

Oh, Allah forbid... The skillset of an engineer is recognized as valuable at the highest levels of terrorist organizations and as such more time/effort is put into recruiting engineers than others.

[Mr Skeptic]

Engineers have a useful skill set for terrorism. Just like law enforcement officers have a useful skill set to do crime in general. It does not mean that engineers have a propensity for terrorism; they could simply 1) be more able to do something nasty if they decide to, 2) decide to do something nasty and then study engineering, 3) try harder to recruit engineers since they are already trained in a useful skill.

 

That said, I'd be careful of a double major in Engineering and Islamic Studies.

[insane_alien]

As an engineer (potentiall a very valuable one to a terrorist organisation as i am a chemical engineer and thus have a background in chemistry as well) i can say that yes, if we put our minds to it we could make something to destroy whatever.

 

fortunately most of us don't care to much for religious fanaticism.

unfortunately i suspect we are targetted for recruitment a lot.

 

i don't want to blow stuff up, i want to build things. i want to solve problems(in a more elegant fashion than a bomb). and i'd rather stay alive. there are more than 32 virgins on the planet and they can be yours if you play your cards right. there isn't even a (useful) guarantee that there even is an afterlife nevermind virgins or even that the virgins are of the desired gender. the virgins probably just consist of the other suicide bombers anyway.

[npts2020]

One thing the article does mention is, that engineers who become terrorists are generally unemployed by the time they resort to it. It would be an interesting study to dissect the psychology and see what similar traits exist in both that are not as commonplace in other professions.

[CaptainPanic]

Crime: terrorism

 

Defendant: the Engineer

 

Means: plenty - defendant has a Masters degree in technology

Motive: defendant is unsatisfied with the performance of the system - defendant sees opportunities for improvement

Opportunity: Defendant has extensive knowledge of infrastructure and safety procedures. Defendant has a professional ability to identify opportunities.

 

The court rules that the Engineer is guilty as charged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means,_motive,_and_opportunity

 

 

As an engineer (potentiall a very valuable one to a terrorist organisation as i am a chemical engineer and thus have a background in chemistry as well) i can say that yes, if we put our minds to it we could make something to destroy whatever.

 

fortunately most of us don't care to much for religious fanaticism.

unfortunately i suspect we are targetted for recruitment a lot.

 

i don't want to blow stuff up, i want to build things. i want to solve problems(in a more elegant fashion than a bomb). and i'd rather stay alive. there are more than 32 virgins on the planet and they can be yours if you play your cards right. there isn't even a (useful) guarantee that there even is an afterlife nevermind virgins or even that the virgins are of the desired gender. the virgins probably just consist of the other suicide bombers anyway.

 

 

Luckily, society can't do without engineers... so we're not at risk of being imprisoned soon. The most dangerous terrorists engineers are arguably also the most needed. I am, like insane_alien, a chemical engineer. Without us, chemical factories, power plants and such important infrastructure comes to a complete stop. But, logically, we also have knowledge of these things, so we can also destroy it by deliberate mismanagement.

 

I object to the point that terrorists are always fundamentalist religious people.

 

Maybe they should pay us more? (Damn, this sounds a lot like extortion! Sorry! But after hearing how much bankers and financial people make, I really think I need to get more... but I'd like to get it in an honorable and fair way).

 

One thing the article does mention is, that engineers who become terrorists are generally unemployed by the time they resort to it. It would be an interesting study to dissect the psychology and see what similar traits exist in both that are not as commonplace in other professions.

If you're an unemployed engineer, you must be a nut. At least in Western Europe, there is a shortage of engineers even in times of crisis.

Edited February 22, 2010 by CaptainPanic

[Sisyphus]

If you're an unemployed engineer, you must be a nut.

 

And vice versa, apparently!

[npts2020]

I agree that in most western countries any competent engineer usually has not trouble finding employment. However, most of the terrorist sort seem to come from third world countries where there might not even be any employment in their field. I don't know what immigration policies are elsewhere but it is fairly difficult to get a work visa or citizenship to come to America.

[Airbrush]

Since we have some chemical engineers on board here, I have a question for anyone. How massive (or bulky) was the bomb that was recently attempted on the airliner near Detroit? Was it just a few pounds? Less than a pound? Over 10 pounds?

[insane_alien]

pretty sure it would have been less than a pound. especially since it was concealed in the groinal area.

 

the only way your going to get more than that there without anyone noticing is if you have a big drooping belly that you can tuck it under.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

the only way your going to get more than that there without anyone noticing is if you have a big drooping belly that you can tuck it under.

Or if your big drooping belly is actually a big drooping bomb.

[Airbrush]

I just remembered the famous "Shoe-Bomber". That bomb was small enough to fit inside his shoe. It is hard to imagine how such a small amount of explosive will rip open a big airliner. That amount can be hidden almost anywhere. Scarry thought.

[InigoMontoya]

I just remembered the famous "Shoe-Bomber". That bomb was small enough to fit inside his shoe. It is hard to imagine how such a small amount of explosive will rip open a big airliner. That amount can be hidden almost anywhere. Scarry thought.

 

But it's not enough to simply "rip open a big airliner." Airliners are quite robust and can survive surprising amounts of damage with reasonable ease (see: Aloha Airlines Flight 243). You have to hit the airliner somewhere it'll hurt and/or create some sort of chain reaction damage. A very small bomb concealed on a person's body isn't likely to cause that sort of damage. That's not to say that it won't cause damage or a few deaths, but it is to say that it's unlikely to bring the whole damn plane down even if there is technically "enough explosives" there (when dealing with such small quanitities, placement becomes important).

 

 

 

FWIW: I'm an aerospace engineer employed by the DoD doing weapons testing for a living. While this isn't my *precise* field of specialization, I do have more than a nodding aquaintance with the topic.

[Mr Skeptic]

Well, if he could take out a wing that would pretty much guarantee everyone dies. Other than that, I don't think there's anything particularly vulnerable that would be accessible to passengers.

[pioneer]

An engineer is a contriver, which means they can come up with solutions to practical problems using applied science. I would say at least some of the engineers go into it for the challenge; if "some" say it can't be done, they will try to do it.

 

A good engineer does not have to buy off the shelf, but can contrive, invent or improvise, what he needs. Terrorists have learned to recruit people with these practical skills, since the terrorist access, to off the shelf, is limited. Iran can not easily buy nuke supplies off the shelf, so they need to recruit engineers to contrive their own version of the same things. The better the talent the less time it takes.

 

Luckily, the terrorists don't have access to the most imaginative engineers. Or, too many of their recruits appear to get involved more with company politics, reducing their contriving time. Middle management pays more but has other responsibilities that get the engineers away from the job of contriving. Some of these new responsibilities may involve field positions and sales meetings.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Some of these new responsibilities may involve field positions and sales meetings.

I wonder what terrorism sales meetings are like.

 

"Now, we also have the Triple Explosion Package, for when your fanatical ideology demands nothing but the best!"

[Airbrush]

"A very small bomb concealed on a person's body isn't likely to cause that sort of damage. That's not to say that it won't cause damage or a few deaths, but it is to say that it's unlikely to bring the whole damn plane down even if there is technically "enough explosives" there (when dealing with such small quanitities, placement becomes important)."

 

Interesting. Then the question is how much of the kind of explosives available to terrorists will it take to actually crash an airliner from somewhere in the passenger cabin?

 

Then you think the shoe-bomber probably could not have crashed the airliner, and maybe not the Detroit underwear-bomber either?

[Radical Edward]

"A very small bomb concealed on a person's body isn't likely to cause that sort of damage. That's not to say that it won't cause damage or a few deaths, but it is to say that it's unlikely to bring the whole damn plane down even if there is technically "enough explosives" there (when dealing with such small quanitities, placement becomes important)."

 

Interesting. Then the question is how much of the kind of explosives available to terrorists will it take to actually crash an airliner from somewhere in the passenger cabin?

 

Then you think the shoe-bomber probably could not have crashed the airliner, and maybe not the Detroit underwear-bomber either?

 

a lot of this depends on the sophistication of the explosives. The body bomb probably would not have done much damage unless there was a lot of it, because it is such a terrible shape, and significantly muffled (by the body it was wrapped around), but if the explosive was carefully shaped, it could cause serious damage and punch a hole in the side of an aircraft.

[InigoMontoya]

Then you think the shoe-bomber probably could not have crashed the airliner, and maybe not the Detroit underwear-bomber either?

I don't actually recall too many details of the shoe bomber, but the underwear bomber? Sheesh... As I understand it, he tried to detonate the explosives while still wearing the underwear. As Radical Edward points out in the post above mine, the bomber's body is going to absorb a LOT of the energy. Our hero's lower torso will be absolutely shredded, and there'd likely be a few more deaths from people in immediate area, but I would be shocked if he brought the whole plane down.

 

it could cause serious damage and punch a hole in the side of an aircraft.

But even then, so what? Airliners are built to handle explosive decompression. There's a big difference between mere decompression and bringing the plane down.

[Airbrush]

I think the info I am curious about is top secret. It was never released in the news.