Planets Orbit Not Because Of Gravity Energy But Because Of Griff Energy Closed Thread

[gafferuk]

ok, confusion with force and energy, so ill repeat.

 

When I jump I use force, when im in the air going upwards i have energy.

why does the force of gravity make me "lose" energy and return to the earth and why does the planets "not lose" energy because of the suns gravity force constantly being applied?

Edited February 20, 2010 by gafferuk

[Moontanman]

ok, confusion with force and energy, so ill repeat.

 

When I jump I use force, when im in the air going upwards i have energy.

why does the force of gravity make me "lose" energy and return to the earth and why does the planets "not lose" energy because of the suns gravity force constantly being applied?

 

Gaff, when you jump up you are not moving fast enough to do anything but fall back down, if you could jump fast enough you could achieve orbit or maybe even escape velocity. You just can't jump with enough force to over come the Earths gravity.

 

The Earth doesn't fall into the sun because the earth is orbiting the sun fast enough to stay in orbit, if it wasn't it would spiral inward toward the sun.

 

Anything in orbit around the earth is already traveling fast enough in relation to the sun to orbit the sun as well so the sun's gravity is negated by the motions of the earth in orbit. No force is necessary to drag the earth around.

 

If you are in a space ship in orbit around the Earth (or on it) and you jump off it you stay in orbit because you are already traveling at orbital speed. Your jump puts you in a slightly different orbit and very very slightly changes the orbit of the space ship but you stay in orbit.

[gafferuk]

Gaff, when you jump up you are not moving fast enough to do anything but fall back down

 

Im falling back down becase im losing energy because of gravity.

So the planets should lose energy too.

 

Why does a firework once gone out fall back to the ground?

 

How does one escape velocity?

[Moontanman]

ok, confusion with force and energy, so ill repeat.

 

When I jump I use force, when im in the air going upwards i have energy.

why does the force of gravity make me "lose" energy and return to the earth and why does the planets "not lose" energy because of the suns gravity force constantly being applied?

 

The planet does not loose energy because you come back to earth, energy is conserved, if you could literally jump off the earth then the Earth would indeed loose a tiny (and I mean minuscule) amount of energy. That is the basis of using gravity assists when sending space craft to other planets. the amount of energy lost is so tiny it's totally negligible but it does happen.

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Why does a firework once gone out fall back to the ground?

 

How does one escape velocity?

 

Fireworks fall back to the ground because they never even come close to achieving escape velocity, speed is what is necessary to achieve orbit and escape velocity. fire works never achieve the speed necessary to do anything but fall back down, just like you when you jump.

[gafferuk]

It is known that once you reach outspace you are no longer effected by earths gravity, and the space men start to float inside there little space crafts.

 

So how does the moon go around? Because of Griff Energy!

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So if i could go from 0 to escape velocity speed in a fraction of a second, i could turn off my engines before I reach the height of a tree and land on the moon?

[Moontanman]

It is known that once you reach outspace you are no longer effected by earths gravity, and the space men start to float inside there little space crafts.

 

So how does the moon go around? Because of Griff Energy!

 

NO! Earths gravity goes everywhere as does the gravity of everything else, men stay in orbit outside and inside their space craft because they are traveling at the same velocity as the space craft, no other reason! BTW it is not proper to say there is no gravity in space, it is called micro gravity.

 

The moon stays in orbit due to it's centrifugal force exactly balancing the gravity of the earth, it's speed allows it to stay in orbit.

[gafferuk]

The moon stays in orbit due to it's centrifugal force exactly balancing the gravity of the earth, it's speed allows it to stay in orbit.

 

But why does it not slow down because of the costant force of gravity? I do when I jump.

 

Can I reach orbit at a height of a tree?

[Moontanman]

So if i could go from 0 to escape velocity speed in a fraction of a second, i could turn off my engines before I reach the height of a tree and land on the moon?

 

Yes, ignoring the friction of the atmosphere yes, if you indeed achieved escape velocity, no matter how quickly, you would indeed leave the earth but you would still be in orbit around the sun.

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But why does it not slow down because of the costant force of gravity? I do when I jump.

 

The moon does not slow down because it is in orbit, there is not enough friction from the interplanetary medium to slow it down over any realistic time frame. It's orbital speed keeps it in orbit, when you jump you never achieve even a small fraction of the necessary speed, friction from air is a real problem as well for your speed.

[npts2020]

Give me a chance mate.

 

Griff Energy is the force that drags the orbiting moon along with the planet while they orbits the sun.

It's a drag energy!

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You still have not answered my question:

 

when i jump im using force. when im in the air, im still moving.

why do i slow down and why do the planets not slow down?

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If a moving snooker ball hits another, it releases its energy force to the other ball. Movement IS ENERGY!

 

Your legs cannot possibly supply enough force to overcome Earth's gravity, hence you fall back to the ground. Objects in orbit are moving orders of magnitude faster than the human body can go on its own. There are mathematical formulas for determining what speed an object needs to travel to maintain a constant orbital distance and the planets are very close to that speed with relation to the sun. Much faster and the planet flies away from the sun, much slower and it gets sucked into the sun. In either case it will travel in a spiral until something stops it from doing so (like crashing into the sun).

[Moontanman]

But why does it not slow down because of the costant force of gravity? I do when I jump.

 

Can I reach orbit at a height of a tree?

 

Gravity holds the moon in orbit, since the moon is not moving away from the earth the earths gravity does not slow it down. Yes, barring the occasional hill or mountain and the friction of the air you could orbit at the height of a mouse if you had enough speed.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Imagine having a piece of string with a ball on the end. Swing it over your head. The ball goes round and round in a circle.

 

Now, the string's pulled tight, correct? And it stretches from the ball to the center of the circle. So it's pulling the ball in towards the center of the circle. If there was no string, or if it was cut, the ball would fly off in a straight line, but the string provides a force that pulls the ball into a circle.

 

If the string pulled twice as hard as it needed to, or the ball went too slowly, the ball would fall towards the center of the circle. If the string were too weak, the ball would go flying off again.

 

That's how orbit works. Gravity is the "string" that connects something in orbit (the Moon, a space station, whatever) to the Earth. If the space station isn't moving fast enough, gravity pulls it in to Earth. If it's moving too fast, it flies off into space. Here on the surface of the Earth, we're hardly moving at all.

[gafferuk]

Yes, ignoring the friction of the atmosphere yes, if you indeed achieved escape velocity, no matter how quickly, you would indeed leave the earth but you would still be in orbit around the sun.

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The moon does not slow down because it is in orbit, there is not enough friction from the interplanetary medium to slow it down over any realistic time frame. It's orbital speed keeps it in orbit, when you jump you never achieve even a small fraction of the necessary speed, friction from air is a real problem as well for your speed.

 

Thats strange, so you fire a bullet at a speed below escape velocity it slows down because of gravity.

 

And if you fire a bullet faster than escape velocity it does not slow down because of gravity and flyes off forever?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Thats strange, so you fire a bullet at a speed below escape velocity and it slows down because of gravity.

 

And if you fire a bullet faster than escape velocity it does not slow down and flyes off forever?

 

It'll slow down. It just won't slow down enough.

[Moontanman]

Thats strange, so you fire a bullet at a speed below escape velocity and it slows down because of gravity.

 

No it slows down due to friction with the air, if there was no air a bullet would arch over and hit the earth at the same speed it had when it left the muzzle of the gun.

 

 

And if you fire a bullet faster than escape velocity it does not slow down and flyes off forever?

 

 

In a word, yes! Actually the cap't is correct, but it would go on forever or at least into orbit around the sun until it hit another object. This effect is not why a bullet slows down how ever and if the bullet was fired just below escape velocity when it reached a certain point it would return to the earth (ignoring any friction) and hit with the velocity it had when it left.

 

There so many assumptions here it is difficult to cover them all, any radial velocity of the bullet if it was less than escape velocity, would cause it to orbit the earth and not come back and hit the earth.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Moontanman

[gafferuk]

So a fired bullet at a speed less than escape velocity receives a constant force from the earths gravity and falls back to the ground.

 

But a bullet fired faster than escape velocity still receives a force from earths gravity but is going too fast too be effected much by the gravity resistance and flyes off forever.

 

Gravity is a force so makes me fall. Why does the escaped velocity bullet not eventualy fall too?

 

From what I believed is only if I fire a bulllet high enough can it reach orbit. Now Im being told I could in theory reach orbit the height of a mouse.

 

Lets ignore air resistance in the future.

 

Ive never heard of reaching orbit the height of a mouse as im sure someone would of created a toy.

 

Does than mean we could have tv satalites above our houses and they no require energy to float?

 

And aeroplanes going at escape velocity dont need to keep there engiines on and can fly around the planet at the height of a tree forever?

 

This really is "back to the future" hover board technology were talking here.

Edited February 20, 2010 by gafferuk

[Moontanman]

So a fired bullet at a speed less than escape velocity receives a constant force from the earths gravity and falls back to the ground.

 

But a bullet fired faster than escape velocity still receives a force from earths gravity but is going too fast too be effected much by the gravity resistance and flyes off forever.

 

Gravity is a force so makes me fall. Why does the escaped velocity bullet not eventualy fall too?

 

Ignoring the friction of the air a bullet fired from a gun at normal "gun" velocities will arch up and over and hit the surface at the same speed it left the gun, gravity will slow it down as it achieves it's highest altitude but the speed will be regained as it falls back. A much higher muzzle velocity will allow the bullet to arch over and never hit the earth and stay in orbit, a higher velocity will allow the bullet to spiral away from the earth forever or at least until the suns gravity takes over and it goes into orbit around the sun. a much higher velocity and the bullet will escape he sun and go into orbit around the galactic core, even higher and it can leave the galaxy as well.

 

If you could fire a gun with 0 radial velocity these ideas will change some what but in the real world that would be if not impossible very unlikely.

[Sisyphus]

Another way to look at it is that, ignoring friction with air, the path of anything you throw in the air is actually part of an orbit that intersects with the ground. If you take a ball that could somehow pass right through the ground and throw it, it will orbit the center of the Earth. The path it will follow will be a very long and skinny ellipse, that only emerges from the ground at the point you threw it from, and disappears back into the ground at the place a normal ball would have landed.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Here's the deal with escape velocity.

 

You know how you reach a certain speed if you fall from a certain height? (Ignore air resistance.) The higher you go, the faster you're going when you hit the ground. Now, suppose you're reeeeallly far away from Earth and you start falling towards it. You'll have a certain amount of energy/speed when you hit.

 

In fact, you can calculate that energy all the way out to infinite distance away from Earth, and it's a finite number. (You won't hit the Earth with infinite speed.) So as long as you launch with an energy greater than that, the Earth's gravity will never be able to take away all of your energy.

[swansont]

what are you trying to say? that newtons law IS FACT?

 

In accordance with a common scientific definition of fact, yes.

 

In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Stephen Jay Gould

[gafferuk]

I can't understand that below escape velocity im effected by gravity and above im not. I would of though that in theory EVENTUALLY i would be effected by the planets gravity.

[Sayonara]

Just so I don't have to read this whole torturous thread, is this "griff" some new mechanism proposal, or is it just a different name for gravity?

 

Also I am guessing from that "closed thread" at the end of the thread title that this topic has proven unpopular or overly tiresome at another forum...?

[insane_alien]

gaffer you are affected by gravity bothe below AND above escape velocity.

[gafferuk]

Just so I don't have to read this whole torturous thread, is this "griff" some new mechanism proposal, or is it just a different name for gravity?

 

Also I am guessing from that "closed thread" at the end of the thread title that this topic has proven unpopular or overly tiresome at another forum...?

 

Read the first post if you like, and yea, it became unpopular on another forum.

[Sayonara]

Read the first post if you like, and yea, it became unpopular on another forum.

I did read the first post and I am still none the wiser.

 

Should I assume from the name "Griff Energy Theory" that the 'griff' that does gravity's job is part of a larger mathematical framework that describes energy transactions?

 

I am just struggling to imagine you having a cogent theory when you don't appear to understand many fundamental principles (no offence).

[gafferuk]

gaffer you are affected by gravity bothe below AND above escape velocity.

 

Then the planets are constantly being effected by gravity too, so just as in i jump i EVENTUALLY slow down and fall, so will the planets as there effected by gravity too.

 

So one day the planets will hit the sun?

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I did read the first post and I am still none the wiser.

 

Should I assume from the name "Griff Energy Theory" that the 'griff' that does gravity's job is part of a larger mathematical framework that describes energy transactions?

 

I am just struggling to imagine you having a cogent theory when you don't appear to understand many fundamental principles (no offence).

 

So far I have not been told anything new.