Planets Orbit Not Because Of Gravity Energy But Because Of Griff Energy Closed Thread

[gafferuk]

so what sets the speed of a planet for it to orbit?

 

some planets are small and fast, others are small and slow, others are large and slow, and others are large and fast, all at different distances.

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Everything falls at the same speed, regardless of how big or heavy it is.

 

Did you imagine the circles as I told you to?

 

wish people would make there minds up. im also told the other:

 

 

 

 

You were told something that is true for all intents an purposes for everyday objects here on Earth, but not true in general.

 

Here's Netwon's Law of Universal Gravitation (in a scalar form):

 

F= G\frac{m_1 m_2}{r^2}

 

F = force of gravity between the two objects, labeled 1 and 2

G = gravitational constant = 6.67428 * 10^-11 m^3/(kg*s^2)

m_1,_2 = mass of objects 1 and 2

r = distance between the objects

 

Now, let's look at an orange and a brick dropped here on earth.

 

Mass of the Earth is 5.9742 * 10^24 kg

Mass of a brick is: 2.7 kg (from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...k_in_Kilograms first on a Google search of "weight of a brick")

Mass of an orange is: 9-11 oz. (from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...t_of_an_orange again, first on a Google search of "weight of an orange) Let's call that 10 oz. that is equal to 0.28 kg

 

Let's do the math. Let's say that the brick and the orange are both dropped from a height of 10 m above the Earth. In this case, r = 10 + 6378100 (average radius of the Earth in m).

 

Force on the orange = 2.35 N

Force on the brick = 26.5 N

 

But, the speed at which the orange or brick actually moves is the acceleration. Force = mass * acceleretion. So, we divide the above forces by their masses and we get

 

Acceleration orange = 9.799792 m^2/s

Acceleration brick = 9.799792 m^2/s identical down to 6 decimal places

 

In fact, Open Office calculates the numbers to be identical for the 1st 14 decimal places given the numbers I put in (about 6 sig figures), and it isn't until that 15th decimal place that 1 digit is 1 greater than the other.

 

Why is this.... quite simply, the mass of the Earth is so much greater than the mass of the brick or the orange, that the gravitational effect of the Earth is for all purposes a constant. Hence, your being told that a brick and an orange do fall at the same speed on Earth.

 

However, if you start putting things in like the mass of the moon, 7.36*10^22 kg or the mass of the sun 1.99*10^30 kg, then the masses do become important and can be calculated from Newton's law given above.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

so what sets the speed of a planet for it to orbit?

 

some planets are small and fast, others are small and slow, others are large and slow, and others are large and fast, all at different distances.

The distance from the thing it's orbiting. That's all. Far planets go slow, close planets go fast. Size doesn't enter into it, as I'll show you below.

 

F= G\frac{m_1 m_2}{r^2}

 

F = force of gravity between the two objects, labeled 1 and 2

G = gravitational constant = 6.67428 * 10^-11 m^3/(kg*s^2)

m_1,_2 = mass of objects 1 and 2

r = distance between the objects

[...]

Why is this.... quite simply, the mass of the Earth is so much greater than the mass of the brick or the orange, that the gravitational effect of the Earth is for all purposes a constant. Hence, your being told that a brick and an orange do fall at the same speed on Earth.

 

However, if you start putting things in like the mass of the moon, 7.36*10^22 kg or the mass of the sun 1.99*10^30 kg, then the masses do become important and can be calculated from Newton's law given above.

 

So, [math]F= G \frac{m_1 m_2}{r^2}[/math]. And [math]F = ma[/math]. If we make the planet [math]m_2[/math], [math]F = m_2 a[/math]. So:

 

[math]F = m_2 a = G\frac{m_1 m_2}{r^2}[/math]

 

Cancel out [math]m_2[/math]:

 

[math]a = G\frac{m_1}{r^2}[/math]

 

The size of the planet doesn't enter into it. It doesn't matter. Your OpenOffice calculations must have had a small rounding error or something -- the math it uses will only be precise to so many decimal places.

[Moontanman]

Everything falls at the same speed, regardless of how big or heavy it is.

 

Did you imagine the circles as I told you to?

 

When I said that everything didn't fall at the same rate i was trying to get gaff to see the idea of friction and how it effects things and that the gravity field of the earth is different from the gravity field of the sun. In a vacuum everything would fall the same in the same gravity field but this idea of different gravity fields plays to the heart of the matter, different planets travel at different speeds due to being in different places in different gravity fields, everything is relative.

 

A one pound lead ball dropped on the earth would fall differently than a one pound ball of Styrofoam. due to friction, friction is something gaff seems to want to ignore or invoke at his pleasure. An "airplane" can't continously orbit at 100 feet due to friction not because of some property of gravity.

 

The idea of why planets move faster or slower plays to how different masses accelerate in different gravity fields as well. a planet doesn't spiral into the sun because it is so massive and has no friction with space, they travel at different speeds because they are at different distances from thier primary.

 

Maybe I just don't understand what gaffs problem with gravity is, I'm beginning to confuse myself.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Moontanman

[Bignose]

I think that there was some confusion. I agree that things falling to the Earth are going to fall at the same acceleration. But, you can't just say that "gravity causes all things to fall at the same rate" because it matters if you are talking about falling towards the Earth or falling towards the moon or falling towards the Sun. I.e. what happens when you change m_1. THEN mass definitely is important. And, I agree that there was a rounding error in the Open Office calculations, that the answers are equal, it was just machine precision errors that accumulated to make the last digit off.

[uncool]

Gaff, try this:

 

We have a 2-dimensional system, with two objects in it. Let us say that one of them weighs a lot more than the other, so that it does not move. Let us put that object at the origin.

 

We then have that the other object has mass m. Let it start at the position (r, 0). We then have it go in a circle at a certain rate omega:

 

x(t) = r cos(omega)

y(t) = r sin(omega)

 

What is the acceleration of the object?

=Uncool-

[gafferuk]

The planets have movement energy but no force(no little jet packs).

The suns gravity has force.

 

A Force acting against energy would cause it to slow down, I do when I jump.

 

Why do the planets not slow down pretty quickly?

 

Lets say a planet is traveling at 1000 mph, and the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph then every hour the planet would slow down by that amount(100 mph)

 

So after 10 hours it would craw to a halt, or as its a planet, hit the sun.

 

Why is this not happening?

 

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

If a planet is traveling at 1000 mph with only a 100mph gravity acting apon it then I would think it would fly off!

 

Newtons law does not at all make sense, So I prepose Griff Force Theory. A Drag Force which drags the orbiting moon along with earth as earth orbits the sun.

 

Can anyone show me some math proof?

Edited February 21, 2010 by gafferuk

[insane_alien]

gafferuk, if gravity slows you down then why do you speed up when you fall?

[gafferuk]

gafferuk, if gravity slows you down then why do you speed up when you fall?

 

Why do you ask such a silly question? you know when you jump you go up, gravity SLOWS YOU DOWN until you go in reverse and return to the ground.

 

Just answer my question

[insane_alien]

there was a reason for a silly question.

 

you said that gravity slows you down no matter what the direction of gravity and the direction of travel yet when you are falling you speed up. this makes your claim demonstratably false.

 

so, gravity will ONLY slow you down if it is acting AGAINST the direction of travel. if it is acting WITH the direction of travel then it will speed the object up.

 

in an orbit it is acting PERPENDICULAR to the direction of travel and therefore will neither speed it up or slow it down.

 

it almost sound like you think an orbit is something just hovering over one point. this is not an orbit at all.

[gafferuk]

there was a reason for a silly question.

 

you said that gravity slows you down no matter what the direction of gravity and the direction of travel yet when you are falling you speed up. this makes your claim demonstratably false.

 

so, gravity will ONLY slow you down if it is acting AGAINST the direction of travel. if it is acting WITH the direction of travel then it will speed the object up.

 

in an orbit it is acting PERPENDICULAR to the direction of travel and therefore will neither speed it up or slow it down.

 

it almost sound like you think an orbit is something just hovering over one point. this is not an orbit at all.

 

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

I dont think PERPENDICULAR has ANYTHING to do with it. Whoever make that up? a bit silly, the universe is not a computer screen.

 

Sorry, but thats only the way YOU THINK IT WORKS.

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so, gravity will ONLY slow you down if it is acting AGAINST the direction of travel. if it is acting WITH the direction of travel then it will speed the object up.

 

If its AGAINST then it will slow you down from flying off. If it's WITH then it will speed you up pulling you towards the sun until doomsday!

 

I would like to know how it can constantly be between "AGAINST and WITH" at the same time and never change to "WITH"?

 

The more I learn of newtons law, the more silly it sounds.

Edited February 21, 2010 by gafferuk
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[insane_alien]

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

i don't understand what this has to do with orbits.

 

I dont think PERPENDICULAR has ANYTHING to do with it. Whoever make that up? a bit silly, the universe is not a computer screen.

 

but the planets ARE travelling perpendicular to the force of gravity in an orbit. this has bugger all to do with computer screens.

 

If its AGAINST then it will slow you down from flying off. If it's WITH then it will speed you up pulling you towards the sun until doomsday!

 

I would like to know how it can constantly be between "AGAINST and WITH" at the same time and never change to "WITH"?

 

you have no concept of time frames do you?

[gafferuk]

i don't understand what this has to do with orbits.

 

The metal ball is orbiting your hand. Because of the magnet it requires additional energy to keep it orbiting.

 

Why does the planets not need additional energy?

 

please don't say PERPENDICULAR, gravity WILL make it fall.

 

this PERPENDICULAR law is absolutly silly, as proven by the magnet and ball.

The ball would require CONSTANT energy to stop it hitting your hand. You stop rotating you hand, the ball will hit your hand GUARANTEED!

[insane_alien]

magnets do not work like gravity, and neither does a string. and there's so much more going on in that case that it is incomparable to a planetary orbit.

 

you have already admitted that a force will have no effect on motion perpendicular to its direction(the whole x and y velocities thing earlier) so don't give me crap about you thinking its silly.

[gafferuk]

you have no concept of time frames do you?

 

Please explain...

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you have already admitted that a force will have no effect on motion perpendicular to its direction(the whole x and y velocities thing earlier) so don't give me crap about you thinking its silly.

 

Im TOTALLY against that idea!

 

Things get pulled by gravity, regardless of angle!

[insane_alien]

well, when i was talking about gravity acting with or against the direction of motion i was reffering to that point in time.

 

you seemed to be thinking i was talking universally as if it will never change its direction of motion even if it was given al of time.

 

m TOTALLY against that idea!

 

Things get pulled by gravity, regardless of angle!

 

you sir are an idiot and a troll. kindly bugger off.

[gafferuk]

magnets do not work like gravity, and neither does a string. and there's so much more going on in that case that it is incomparable to a planetary orbit.

 

Magnet force and gravity force is exactly the same as in its a "pulling force".

 

If magnets dont care of PERPENDICULAR then why should gravity?

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The planets have movement energy but no force(no little jet packs).

The suns gravity has force.

 

A Force acting against energy would cause it to slow down, I do when I jump.

 

Why do the planets not slow down pretty quickly?

 

Lets say a planet is traveling at 1000 mph, and the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph then every hour the planet would slow down by that amount(100 mph)

 

So after 10 hours it would craw to a halt, or as its a planet, hit the sun.

 

Why is this not happening?

 

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

If a planet is traveling at 1000 mph with only a 100mph gravity acting apon it then I would think it would fly off!

 

Newtons law does not at all make sense, So I prepose Griff Force Theory. A Drag Force which drags the orbiting moon along with earth as earth orbits the sun.

 

Can anyone show me some math proof?

Edited February 21, 2010 by gafferuk
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[insane_alien]

magnets do care about perpendicular but the field shape is totally different as it is a dipole while gravitational sources are monopoles.

[gafferuk]

If I put a ball in space stationary, it wll get pulled to the sun.

 

How does this PERPENDICULAR law work? It just seems silly.

 

Things must slow down because of the force of gravity acting apon it.

 

How is this choice of "I won't get pulled to the sun" being made?

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magnets do care about perpendicular

 

As it has a funny field shape, this is impossible to prove.

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The planets have movement energy but no force(no little jet packs).

The suns gravity has force.

 

A Force acting against energy would cause it to slow down, I do when I jump.

 

Why do the planets not slow down pretty quickly?

 

Lets say a planet is traveling at 1000 mph, and the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph then every hour the planet would slow down by that amount(100 mph)

 

So after 10 hours it would craw to a halt, or as its a planet, hit the sun.

 

Why is this not happening?

 

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

If a planet is traveling at 1000 mph with only a 100mph gravity acting apon it then I would think it would fly off!

 

Newtons law does not at all make sense, So I prepose Griff Force Theory. A Drag Force which drags the orbiting moon along with earth as earth orbits the sun.

 

Can anyone show me some math proof?

 

If you believe in this PERPENDICULAR law then if i increased the gravity from the sun, what would happen?

 

If a planet is orbiting the sun, it is trying to fly away, if it's gravity pulling it in that stops it flying away then it will KEEP pulling in until the planet does indeed pull in. doomsday!

Edited February 21, 2010 by gafferuk
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[insane_alien]

SHOUTING DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT

 

seriously, you are going to have to offer some evidence. i mean what have you offered other than:

 

1/ you do not understand basic physics

2/ you don't think maths is acceptable

3/ you claim to have invented some new energy that has somehow been missed by centuries of scientists.

 

seriously, go read a highschool physics text and then come back.

[Klaynos]

The planets have movement energy but no force(no little jet packs).

The suns gravity has force.

 

A Force acting against energy would cause it to slow down, I do when I jump.

 

Why do the planets not slow down pretty quickly?

 

Lets say a planet is traveling at 1000 mph, and the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph then every hour the planet would slow down by that amount(100 mph)

 

So after 10 hours it would craw to a halt, or as its a planet, hit the sun.

 

Why is this not happening?

 

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

If a planet is traveling at 1000 mph with only a 100mph gravity acting apon it then I would think it would fly off!

 

Newtons law does not at all make sense, So I prepose Griff Force Theory. A Drag Force which drags the orbiting moon along with earth as earth orbits the sun.

 

Can anyone show me some math proof?

 

You are forgetting directions, force acts in a direction. It cannot affect things 90degrees to that direction.

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If I put a ball in space stationary, it wll get pulled to the sun.

 

But because the space station is orbiting the earth, which is orbiting the sun it is already going sideways VERY VERY quickly relative to the sun so it keeps missing the sun when it falls, it orbits.

 

How does this PERPENDICULAR law work? It just seems silly.

 

I tried explaining this above, something like post 81 you agreed that you understood how this worked, is that not true? It does seems as if you are having some issue with it. You just have to make the step from understanding that x y are different independent components into realising that x and y are rotating around the sun with time for something moving sideways (tangentially) relative to the sun.

 

Things must slow down because of the force of gravity acting apon it.

 

The acceleration is only in the direction gravity is acting, which is towards the orbit which is why orbits are curved, if the suns gravity suddenly turned off the planets would keep moving, but in a straight line instead of a curved orbit.

 

How is this choice of "I won't get pulled to the sun" being made?

 

You will get pulled, hence orbits.

 

As it has a funny field shape, this is impossible to prove.

 

No, you can conduct experiments quite easily that show force componants only act in one direction using magnets, look at things like mass spectrometers.

 

The planets have movement energy but no force(no little jet packs).

The suns gravity has force.

 

A Force acting against energy would cause it to slow down, I do when I jump.

 

But gravity doesn't slow you down sideways when you jump sideways just up and down.

 

Why do the planets not slow down pretty quickly?

 

See above.

 

Lets say a planet is traveling at 1000 mph, and the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph then every hour the planet would slow down by that amount(100 mph)

 

You need to include information about direction.

 

So after 10 hours it would craw to a halt, or as its a planet, hit the sun.

 

Why is this not happening?

 

The speed is being added in a constantly changing different direction.

 

If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?

 

If a planet is traveling at 1000 mph with only a 100mph gravity acting apon it then I would think it would fly off!

 

The planets orbits would change if you changed their tangential speed.

 

Newtons law does not at all make sense, So I prepose Griff Force Theory. A Drag Force which drags the orbiting moon along with earth as earth orbits the sun.

 

If you propose it you need to show that it mathematically makes better predictions than GR gravity does. Else it is worthless and you might as well propose a boiled egg.

 

Can anyone show me some math proof?

 

Go read wikipedia it tends to be quite good for that kind of thing.

 

If you believe in this PERPENDICULAR law then if i increased the gravity from the sun, what would happen?

 

You told me you understood this! I think it'd be a good challenge for you to go find the maths and try putting in different masses for the planets and the sun, there are online simulators that will just let you do this,

 

If a planet is orbiting the sun, it is trying to fly away, if it's gravity pulling it in that stops it flying away then it will KEEP pulling in until the planet does indeed pull in. doomsday!

 

The first part is correct, the second part is missing the fact that the sideways speed of the planet is not being changed by gravity.

[sciencemaster]

Has anyone had an object in a true orbit, that requires no energy to stay in space? That does not slow down and spiral to the earth?

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"If you swing a metal ball on a string, and held a power magnet in your hand, the ball would be attracted to the magnet, only if you give it additional force will it not hit the magnet. Where is the planets getting this additional energy from?"

 

The case is if the magnet has "any force" then the ball will get pulled in, the only way it would not be pulled in is if the magnet had a force of zero.

 

Newtons law may state one thing, but reality says someting else.

Edited February 21, 2010 by sciencemaster
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[Bignose]

Lets say a planet is traveling at 1000 mph, and the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph

 

gafferuk, this is a meaningless statement here. mph is NOT a unit of force. So, saying "the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph" is as meaningless as saying "the gravitational force acting on it is 100 bananas" or "the gravitational force acting on it is 100 lengths from your pinky toe to your nose".

 

Units of force are Newtons (SI) or pounds-force (English).

 

You HAVE to get the units right when discussing physics, or else it breaks down incredibly quickly into nonsense.

[sciencemaster]

gafferuk, this is a meaningless statement here. mph is NOT a unit of force. So, saying "the gravitational force acting on it is 100 mph" is as meaningless as saying "the gravitational force acting on it is 100 bananas" or "the gravitational force acting on it is 100 lengths from your pinky toe to your nose".

 

Units of force are Newtons (SI) or pounds-force (English).

 

You HAVE to get the units right when discussing physics, or else it breaks down incredibly quickly into nonsense.

 

If I was at a stationary distance of jupiter. give it an hour, what speed will I be traveling towards the sun? Say 100 MPH

 

Thats what gafferuk is on about. I would of thought an clever guy like yourself would of thought this.

 

Then what speed is jupiter traveling at? Say 1000 MPH

 

What is the ratio difference of me falling and jupiters speed? 1 to 10

 

I think your find jupiter should fly off.

 

If we hold an orange and a brick out at a distance of jupiter and let them go, if they fall to the sun at the same speed then mass seems irrelevant.

 

So were comparing speeds. 1000 mph compared to 100 mph is a lot of difference.

 

 

 

 

Lets average out the mass of the planets, the speed of travel and there distance from the sun don't add up to newtons law.

 

If you don't believe this then please look in to wikipedia, find the planet distances and speeds, post them here and well go through them one by one...

Edited February 21, 2010 by sciencemaster

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Thats what gafferuk is on about. I would of thought an clever guy like yourself would of thought this.

 

Funny you'd say this, seeing as you are gafferuk. Could you kindly cut out the ban-evasion? This is your third account that I know of.

[sciencemaster]

You banned me for lifting petrol, so answer me this.

 

If I get a 50cc moped engine and a bucket and fishing wire, drop the bucket down a well, winch it up, at only 30mph(a little rev of the engine) it will take only 3 mins to reach the surface(1.5 miles) and take next to no petrol to operate the engine as its running on fumes. This should scale up to huge engine lifting huge amounts of oil using very little energy.

 

Compare this to current pumping methids which use about 1/3 of the petrol to operate the engine compare to what it brings up.

 

In 20-50 years time our children will be complaining that we burnt up all the fuel because we were too lazy to lift it.

 

The world has been warned!

 

SO ACT TODAY! To receive your "ACT NOW INFO PACK" please send a stamped self addressed envelope containing £100 to "Lift The Oil Campain", The Big Fat Mansion, Dodgy Road, Hollywood". Thank You.

Edited February 21, 2010 by sciencemaster