Haiti's Unreinforced Concrete Deathtrap

[Airbrush]

In all the news about the Haiti earthquake disaster, very little attention has been paid to the CAUSE which is literally poor architecture, unreinforced concrete. Where else in the world will we see 200,000+ deaths from a 7.0 on the Richtor scale? Are there many 3rd world cities built of unreinforced concrete (the cheapest construction available) and thus ready to pancake the next time there is a large earthquake nearby?

Edited February 25, 2010 by Airbrush

[insane_alien]

well seeing as poor countries typically can't afford better construction materials they don't really have much of a choice in the matter.

[ecoli]

one of the more silly arguments I've heard was to compare california to haiti, and use that comparison to say that haiti needs stronger building codes.

 

Of course it's a poverty issue and a code enforcement issue. Who cares what the code is. Haiti is/was too corrupt to enforce codes and too poor to follow them.

[Pangloss]

Is it because of the cost of the metal used to reinforce the concrete? I wonder if there might be some alternative that could be used.

[Phi for All]

Is it because of the cost of the metal used to reinforce the concrete? I wonder if there might be some alternative that could be used.

Steel rebar is relatively inexpensive, and has the added benefit of a similar expansion coefficient. It can also be bent and welded together for internal integrity. If the concrete used is good quality and the environment is not too hostile, there is little to no corrosion since the steel is embedded and protected by the concrete. Offhand I can't think of anything cheaper that would be as easy to work with.

 

There are fiber reinforced plastics, but I don't think they are as cost-effective or durable as steel. They also can't be bent or welded once they are pultruded. They are mostly used where there is a high risk of corrosion.

[Mr Skeptic]

I've heard that quake proofing the buildings would have added 5% to their cost. Still, a 5% discount sounds pretty good when you're really poor and don't really think an earthquake is likely. That's why building codes are needed.

[Pangloss]

Ouch. That would seem to point toward building codes. Of course enforcing those codes is another matter, but then at least they have a chance.

 

All of this seems to reinforce (with steel) the idea that it's an across-the-board problem with Haiti (or any other 3rd-world nation). Education, industry, government, all need work.

[Airbrush]

How many more comparable disasters are waiting to happen all over the world in similar concrete buildings?

 

I think that heavily populated area of Haiti had no major earthquake in recent memory. Many other currently vulnerable cities may not have such an earthquake memory either. When a country goes without a major quake for a couple hundred years, they are not thinking about quake safety. So they figured it would probably never happen. Only an engineer living in Port Au Prince was even aware of the danger and would choose to not live in one of those multi-storied apartment complexes, even though the rent was cheap.

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"How many more comparable disasters are waiting to happen all over the world in similar concrete apartment complexes?"

 

Not Chile. As of Sunday morning here in Southern California, Chile seems to have dodged a bullet. Although many would suppose a coastal area would be heavily populated, not so in the area hit in Chile. It was 8.8R but that's because it was spread out over a large area which was luckily not heavily populated, an agricultural area.

[Dudde]

Not that we really have a ginormous budget to think about, but I wonder if it would be cost effective to help 3rd world countries in these predicaments upgrade their structural integrity, as opposed to helping after major disasters.

 

Of course, it should be that country's responsibility to build safely in the first place - but if we're going to spend millions upon in aid when a catastrophe strikes, one surmises we might just send them a million to reinforce their buildings. I'd prefer to reinforce something like than than to spend a few billion in some senator's earmark for something that nobody really cares about =\

[Mr Skeptic]

That's an interesting idea. I wonder though, would

1) The aid receivers be as grateful for receiving preventative aid?

2) The givers feel as well satisfied giving preventative aid?

 

Who says we have to make sense?

[Dudde]

That's an interesting idea. I wonder though, would

1) The aid receivers be as grateful for receiving preventative aid?

2) The givers feel as well satisfied giving preventative aid?

 

Who says we have to make sense?

 

That's a good point, besides - everyone would view it as a waste of money if nothing happened, and if no bad things happened then I'm sure the recipients would forget about the aid and blame us for not helping.

 

still, I'd prefer forgotten dollars over 200,000 dead, that's a bit in the extreme.

[CaptainPanic]

That's a good point, besides - everyone would view it as a waste of money if nothing happened, and if no bad things happened then I'm sure the recipients would forget about the aid and blame us for not helping.

 

still, I'd prefer forgotten dollars over 200,000 dead, that's a bit in the extreme.

 

I apologize beforehand for the next remark.

But, during a crisis like this, the population grows faster than the dollars, though.

 

Read more cold statistics here:

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Americas/Haiti-POPULATION.html

[Phi for All]

Not that we really have a ginormous budget to think about, but I wonder if it would be cost effective to help 3rd world countries in these predicaments upgrade their structural integrity, as opposed to helping after major disasters.

 

Of course, it should be that country's responsibility to build safely in the first place - but if we're going to spend millions upon in aid when a catastrophe strikes, one surmises we might just send them a million to reinforce their buildings. I'd prefer to reinforce something like than than to spend a few billion in some senator's earmark for something that nobody really cares about =\

We all really need to start thinking like this for the future. Sometimes the upfront costs are pretty high, but save tons of money over a long period, like using higher quality materials with 3x costs and 6x durability. Sometimes it's just a matter of giving up some convenience upfront, like with letting asphalt cure for 3 months before driving on it so it lasts for 10 years.

 

Putting rebar in concrete to reinforce it should be part of international law (or at least international consciousness), something everyone takes for granted, like railings on a balcony so kids don't walk off them. It's easy to inspect to make sure it's being done, and adds little to the costs. Maybe the politicians should start getting their photo ops and sound bytes from diverted disaster sites where their foresight saved thousands of lives.

[Airbrush]

"...Putting rebar in concrete to reinforce it should be part of international law (or at least international consciousness), something everyone takes for granted...."

 

This is a global concern, so the UN should get involved. Nations should be required to follow basic earthquake-resistant building codes, since other nations will have to pay much of the victim nation's bill for damages. Places like Pakistan and Iran and some other underdeveloped Asian nations are living in ticking time bombs for their next big quake. Those multi-story, concrete, low-rent, apartment complexes are suspect.

 

Chile has pretty good building codes, that are followed, because they had experience rebuilding after the 1960 quake.

[Sisyphus]

It's not really an international concern, though. Air pollution is an international concern, because we all share the same air. Arms control is an international concern, because weapons cross borders to kill people. But building codes? A poorly constructed building in Haiti falls in Haiti. Sure, international visitors could be hurt, and the world economy is interconnected, but you could say that about anything. As much as I hate to say it, ultimately, it's just not our business.

[Mr Skeptic]

We could, however, make the case that various aid organizations could best provide aid by threatening not to provide aid if some minimum building codes aren't followed.

[Phi for All]

This is a global concern, so the UN should get involved.

I'm not sure there is anything that can be legally done by the UN. I was really talking about education, some sort of awareness program for reinforced concrete. Something that simply makes it de rigueur for anyone building multi-stories with concrete to reinforce it with something. As I mentioned, even in the poorest countries, you wouldn't think of building a balcony without a railing, and the same mindset should be encouraged with using reinforced concrete.

[ecoli]

We could, however, make the case that various aid organizations could best provide aid by threatening not to provide aid if some minimum building codes aren't followed.

 

It's not like they have the resources to do this. Considering that government, they way we think of it, doesn't really exist.

 

How to organizations verify that the enforcement is being done? Examine millions of construction sites? I don't think that's very realistic.

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I'm not sure there is anything that can be legally done by the UN. I was really talking about education, some sort of awareness program for reinforced concrete. Something that simply makes it de rigueur for anyone building multi-stories with concrete to reinforce it with something. As I mentioned, even in the poorest countries, you wouldn't think of building a balcony without a railing, and the same mindset should be encouraged with using reinforced concrete.

 

It's easy for someone buying a building and say "hey, there should really be a railing here." Very different for people to observe that a building doesn't have reinforced concrete.

 

Besides for the fact that the people occupying these buildings don't really have much say in the matter or alternative options.

[Airbrush]

It's not really an international concern, though. Air pollution is an international concern, because we all share the same air. Arms control is an international concern, because weapons cross borders to kill people. But building codes? A poorly constructed building in Haiti falls in Haiti. Sure, international visitors could be hurt, and the world economy is interconnected, but you could say that about anything. As much as I hate to say it, ultimately, it's just not our business.

 

That is a good point. Building codes in other countries and their enforcement is not our business. But when they call us for help, we should say "Sorry, we want to help but unfortunately we are broke. We already owe China and Japan Trillions of dollars." They should borrow from China.

[Rickdog]

In international disasters, help is not asked for. It is granted by those who wants to freely give it, without conditioning, and most of the time really appreciated by those who are suffering.

 

Secondly, in Chile as you say, building codes are pretty good, but at the end its all an economical decission to follow them, as corruption also exists, many buildings aren`t really built under the codes, and when sold the buyers are promised that they are. So only when a great magnitude earthquake strikes you, you are going to find out if what they promised you is really what you have. During the past earthquake, most of the buildings that had problems in Santiago (6.500.000 inhabitants, hit by 8.3 Richter last Saturday), were the newly built ones, so at the end, money rules, by the payment of politicians, builders and local authorities who suffer from blindness the moment they have to accept a new building in accordance to those building codes, and accept it as perfectly safe, cheating on the poor buyer, who really believes them, and at the end gets completely ruined, by loosing a great part of his long, hard, working treasury, spent on that department of his dreams. It is a sad issue too.

 

As what you refered yourself to my country, the area affected by the 8.8 earthquake, has more than the 25 % of Chile`s population, being Concepción-Talcahuano (50 years ago they were separated, now only a wall separates them), Talca and Curico, three of the mayor cities of Chile, and yes they are in the area where most of the agriculture is, but only in those three or four cities, not considering their metropolitan areas, more than 2.000.000 people use to live, now most of them don`t know where will they live, but that`s a diferent story.......

:-(

Edited March 4, 2010 by Rickdog
Consecutive posts merged.

[Airbrush]

Thanks for your contribution Rickdog, with your first-hand knowledge of the situation in Chile. Yes, there is always the risk of builders cheating on codes. There must be a way to verify codes are followed, such as photographs, or live inspections, required at various stages of construction.