Germany oppresses Home Schooling

[john5746]

Germans seek asylum in the US

 

I found this interesting. We do take some freedoms for granted.

[timo]

I assume that most Germans (they were probably not included in "we", were they?) take some freedoms for granted, too.

[CharonY]

In addition, I would be interested whether there are actually non-religious people who want to homeschool their kids in Germany.

[CharonY]

I was just curious how homeschooling may be conducted in the US and found some publishers for books that are designed for homeschoolers. One of them is just.. uhm.

http://www.homeschools.org/viewCurriculum/grade6/grade6.html

http://www.homeschools.org/viewCurriculum/highSchool.html

Uhm, I hope there are better sources.

[Moontanman]

That is scary CharonY, any one who followed such a curriculum would be far behind any college prep type public school. 4 years of theology and only 2 of math and 2 of science?

[CharonY]

Have you looked at the titles of the science books?

[Moontanman]

Yes, if that is generally the gist of what home schooling is teaching then it needs to be illegal here as well.

[Sisyphus]

The stereotype of the nutjob homeschoolers doesn't come from nowhere. One of Conservapedia's main stated goals is a resource for homeschooling parents.

 

However, I know they're not all that way. I actually think I would love to homeschool kids, if I didn't have to work. And I didn't think it would totally screw them up socially. And I had kids. And I didn't ever want any time away from them. And vice versa. Hmm.

[swansont]

I was just curious how homeschooling may be conducted in the US and found some publishers for books that are designed for homeschoolers. One of them is just.. uhm.

http://www.homeschools.org/viewCurriculum/grade6/grade6.html

http://www.homeschools.org/viewCurriculum/highSchool.html

Uhm, I hope there are better sources.

 

That's a general problem

 

"Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling," says the introduction to "Biology: Third Edition" from Bob Jones University Press. "This book was not written for them."

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_home_school_evolution

[Moontanman]

Why is it ok for a person to cripple their children by giving them an education that is made up of lies and disinformation? What if your religion said you had to pluck out on eye of your child for them to get to heaven or cut off a hand or beat them unmercifully every day. Almost any kind of abuse can be based in some religion from physical to sexual, I doubt society would put up with these things so why does religion make it ok to teach your kids a substandard education?

[Dudde]

That's a general problem

 

"Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling," says the introduction to "Biology: Third Edition" from Bob Jones University Press. "This book was not written for them."

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_home_school_evolution

 

from your link:

 

Christian-based materials dominate a growing home-school education market that encompasses more than 1.5 million students in the U.S. And for most home-school parents, a Bible-based version of the Earth's creation is exactly what they want. Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children "religious or moral instruction."

 

That's kinda scary, makes me want to have children just to homeschool them, so I can make them integrate into normal child society and mess with all the theologically taught children

[CharonY]

From swansont's link

Christian-based materials dominate a growing home-school education market that encompasses more than 1.5 million students in the U.S. And for most home-school parents, a Bible-based version of the Earth's creation is exactly what they want. Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children "religious or moral instruction."

This is weird. I mean, what do religious or moral instructions have to do e.g. with science classes? The real goal is more likely to monopolize the information the kids get.

[jackson33]

john5746;

Something doesn't make sense to me with this case, specifically the need to be granted asylum in the US to avoid fining or imprisonment. First, Home Schooling is NOT illegal in much of the European Union, folks can work, live, assume go to school or not, in many States. The article even mentions this in neighboring France. Then I feel sure, there must be some means to educate children IN GERMANY, with out being taught the Muslim Religion, sex education or most anything offending parents. Then the US in accepting this as a reason for asylum in the first place, would open a Pandora's box for the few that do receive asylum for real cause, think about 40-50 thousand per year of the million plus that gain entry each year.

 

I know absolutely nothing about German Law, but they do profess a separation of State and Church;

 

The freedom of religion in the Grundgesetz (Basic Law) means one may adopt any kind of religious or non-religious belief, practice it in private or in public, confess it or keep it for oneself. The state does not identify with any religious organization.

Religious freedom, like the other basic rights of the Grundgesetz, is limited where it collides with the core value of human dignity or with the basic rights of others, or if it is misused to fight against the basic constituency of free democracy.[/Quote]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Germany

 

This tells me their Federal Government is NOT responsible for what may be other reasons, certain subject are or are not taught, ie Religion. That is, how can this be law and then mandating the teaching of a particular religion?

 

As for home Schooling in the US; About half the States have specific laws regulating the practice in part and others are trying to get involved. While about 85% are for religious reason, 15% are not and can be researched under a google search 'Secular Home Schooling'...Often these sources offer both a religious and secular format, but States have no requirements of religion for home schooling, that meaning the religion parts are extra curriculum, not the base of the education. Guess I best add IMO.

[Moontanman]

The idea of home schooling is worrisome, if indeed you can show that public schools do not provide access to a good education in your area you might have a leg to stand on but from what I've seen that is a white whale of immense proportions.

 

In my area nearly all home schooled children are white, middle to high income families, almost always very religious. The idea most of them claim is their motive is a quality education but the education they give their children is often nothing but an extreme religious slant on reality, not too different than the so called Muslim schools where only religion is taught.

 

In many cases the only thing that keeps this from happening is the need to pass standardized tests on various subjects. I say there is a lot more to school than passing standardized tests.

 

My children went to public schools and yes, oh my god! with people who were different from them, some of them were actually negro yes there were conflicts, distractions, the occasional fight but they went on to the UNC university system and did or are doing quite well, still OMFG! going to school with people who are not WASPS! I have to admit my boys might have had ahead start of the racial issues because many of our family and family friends were people of color and my children were used to seeing black people, socializing with them and just being around people who were not WASPS.

 

Looking back my main concern was not exposing them to more of their Native American heritage but it is what it is, too late now to second guess. Then as now I think it is a mistake to concentrate too much on heritage and ignore the here and now.

 

Most of the reason people home school their children is fear, fear whipped up by the media, but mostly the local churches due to the fear the kids might be exposed to real science, fear that their little white kids might have to share a room or a buss with someone of a different color or religious persuasion.

 

My sons often commented on these kids when they were occasionally thrust back into the public system due to family problems that keep their parents from continuing their home schooling. My sons said these kids acted like aliens, totally unprepared to the real world.

 

I felt a little sorry for those kids, they had no clue of reality, very little social skills, almost totally unable to deal with the social and sexual tensions middle and high schools are full of and deathly afraid of people of color.

 

I spent lots of time in school programs helping kids, simply being a part of my children's life and helping those who's parents couldn't be there. from visits to museums to band concerts to trips to New York City, to scuba camps. But one thing i i am quite sure of, the parents who isolated their children from reality did them no favors.

 

The idea that Home Schooling is reason to allow someone to immigrate to the US is very disturbing, many people are persecuted for their beliefs or politics but I don't see Germany being that way by any stretch of the imagination.

[CharonY]

Jackson33,

 

to be honest I am not quite sure whether religious education is a special case in Germany. Fact is that religion is taught at school (mostly christian that is), but if you are not Christian or religious you do not need to attend (most often philosophy or sometimes ethic classes are offered instead).

I have to add that in Germany religion classes are less a introduction in christian values (though oddly they do, or used to split between protestants and catholics) but rather a general introduction into different religions (though usually with a main focus on christianity), including history, for instance.

Strange thing is that the split between State and Church is less pronounced, people tend to be less religious as whole (or used to, at least). However going to school is mandatory in Germany. You can, of course homeschool as much as you want, on top of the mandatory schooling. This is to ensure a certain level of education.

[Pangloss]

Most of the reason people home school their children is fear, fear whipped up by the media, but mostly the local churches due to the fear the kids might be exposed to real science, fear that their little white kids might have to share a room or a buss with someone of a different color or religious persuasion.

 

Really?

 

How do we know this?

[Mr Skeptic]

Why is it ok for a person to cripple their children by giving them an education that is made up of lies and disinformation?

 

And what is the alternative? Shall we let the government dictate what kids must learn? What if they decide to teach patriotism and unquestioning loyalty to their leaders?

[Severian]

Will the US be granting paedophiles asylum next? After all, Germany persecute their way of life too.

[Sisyphus]

Will the US be granting paedophiles asylum next? After all, Germany persecute their way of life too.

 

That is a fair point. One man's persecution is another man's protection of children. What are the criteria for political asylum? It's more than just "it's illegal there, but not here."

[Moontanman]

Really?

 

How do we know this?

 

I know it from being in the middle of it for years, listening to preachers say that public schools are trolling grounds for homosexual teachers, immoral behavior being taught, how black people were using public schools to seduce our daughters this stuff just went on and on often into insane ravings. To be honest it was very disturbing. Now I have to admit this was 20+ years ago but I still hear bits and pieces of it from home school parents and it's still disturbing.

 

Religion is often quite disturbing, I remember the "Rod Of God" ministries from the mid 80's black churches can be just as nuts although i never felt uncomfortable in one (other than the Rod Of God place)

 

Snake handlers, speaking in tongues, slain by the spirit, if you think your local church is quirky I have a few places you should visit. To be honest I just turned away Jehovah's Wittinesses about 10 minutes ago, took me by surprise, usually they show up on alternate Sundays, must be the end of the world!

 

But to answer your question, i have no documented proof, I would be surprised to find any.

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

And what is the alternative? Shall we let the government dictate what kids must learn? What if they decide to teach patriotism and unquestioning loyalty to their leaders?

 

That is a good point, quite possibly we are all in an impossible situation and doomed to fail even if we succeed Religion is an argument that defies reason, feeds on tolerance, and destroys free will. Religion will always take advantage of any avenue that allows them to control reality to suit their needs, they care not for what is right, only for what is written in their book.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Moontanman
Consecutive posts merged.

[jackson33]

Germany

Most of the federal states of Germany, which has a long history of almost even division between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, have an arrangement where the religious bodies oversee the training of mainline Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish religious education teachers. In one of the federal states this includes Orthodox Christian teachers as well. The training is supposed to be conducted according to modern standards of the humanities, at mostly state-run colleges and universities. Those teachers teach religion in the public schools, paid by the state but answerable to the churches for the content of their teaching; however they must not teach behaviour that is against the law. Children who don't belong to a mainstream religion or wish to opt out for another reason must usually attend neutral classes in "Ethics" or "Philosophy" instead. From the age of 14, children may decide on their own if they want to attend classes and which. For younger children it is the decision of the parents. The state also subsidizes religious schools by paying up to 90% of their expenses. These schools have to follow the same curricula as the public schools of their federal state, however.[/Quote]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education

 

CHaronY;

Germany, is then made up of 16 member states* which have some control over their Educational System. The highlighted part of the above, indicates that parents make the choice up to age 14 and the student after that age, to participate or not in any one or all religions religious classes and in some cases attend neutral classes in "Ethics" or "Philosophy", instead. The driving motive FOR these classes apparently is the 90% of this cost the Federal, subsidizes.

 

*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education

 

It is law, in Germany that ALL Children must attend school, opposed to simply 'Home Schooling' but as said there is no law preventing home schooling in addition.

 

Back to my original problems on the OP: The Judge, that granted asylum in the US on 'grounds of persecution' was either ill informed or ignorant and the German System, would not support the claim, IMO.

[Pangloss]

But to answer your question, i have no documented proof, I would be surprised to find any.

 

No worries, I respect your opinion on it (that fear is the primary motivator for home-schooling).

 

But I think fear comes in a lot of flavors. Even fear of moral suasion comes in multiple flavors, and not all of them reside towards the right end of the political spectrum.

 

 

--------------

 

 

I think we can do better than the implications in this thread from various posters, and the apparent generally-accepted wisdom in this community, that home schoolers are mostly religious zealots, and that those who pursue this path are on an inferior path to knowledge. What I think I'm hearing here are popular opinions without substantiation. I think we can do better than that.

 

My personal experience suggests that the answer is deeper than what's being conveyed by the majority here. My cousin, a devoutly religious Christian conservative who was at one time employed by Focus on the Family (as in she follows the popular stereotype), has two sons whom she home schooled. One of them went to West Point, and the other got a full scholarship to an Ivy League school. Both graduated ahead of schedule and with honors. I can't speak to the question of adjustment to psychological norms, but one is married and has a child on the way, and the other will be getting married soon, and their wives are gorgeous and well-educated. (shrug)

 

But of course I'm sure no one would dispute that there are exceptions to every rule, so we really need to know if cases like this are closer to the norm, or closer to the exception. Otherwise I don't see how we can really pass judgment on this issue.

 

So, would anyone like to collect and present some evidence for us to consider? Specifically, how about some statistics on the educational question? How prepared/unprepared are they for college? How do they stack up against public school students? Also, are there any qualitative numbers on reasons behind parental home school decision-making?

 

(I did see that swansont posted a link to an article on page 1 in which a spokesperson for a special interest group with unknown motivations said that most parents who select home schooling "self-identify" as evangelicals, but I'm hoping for a little more detail and clarity here, if we can find it.)

[Moontanman]

I'll admit it is a personal issue with lots of emotions and assumptions, i was heavily criticized by some for sending my boys to an inner city type school but they both managed to get both a quality education and lots of life long friends. Fear of public schools can be just as real or imagined as fear of home schooling. I have always said the involvement of the parents is more important than who the kids go to school with.

[Pangloss]

That's an interesting point about being criticized for sending your kids to public school, and I think it's something that probably also comes up in the context of deciding whether to send one's children to private school. So it's probably a fear that's been around a while, but I would imagine that it has an impact here as well.

 

Your post also reminds me that another question we should ask here (on an academic level) is whether they can acquire "life long friends" (i.e. the general benefits of social associations) if they are being educated via home schooling.

 

Put another way, I'm not sure I buy the premise that social interactions are limited in home schooling. Also, there are many negative interactions to go along with positive ones, and I don't just mean bullying -- I mean things like the reaction to bullying, as in how it's handled by administrators so that it becomes a learning experience instead of a damaging one -- even if we buy the premise that having the "bullying experience" can produce a positive outcome. Presumably not every school will handle that situation well.

 

I'm sure it's possible that some home-schooled students are isolated and become developmentally challenged as a result, but I have no idea what the experience of most home-schooled children actually is.

[Moontanman]

I've tried to look for some studies but the subject is so full of people with agendas I suspect a truly neutral study is non existent.

 

As with most anecdotal evidence, your mileage will vary depending on your own point of view