Suitcase Full of Loot

[Phi for All]

It's midnight, you're walking on a greenbelt path in a residential area that goes under a main street, there's no one else around and you hear a police car siren approaching. As you emerge from the tunnel, you hear a car pass overhead at high speed, and suddenly a hardside suitcase drops from the street level to the path. The car speeds on and the police car also speeds by, sirens on and lights flashing. Neither car's passengers could have seen you down on the path.

 

The case has popped open neatly with nothing falling out. Inside is a bunch of money in denominations ranging from $10 - $100, wrapped crudely with rubber bands. There could conceivably be several tens of thousands of dollars there. There is also a large plastic gallon bag of what seems to be marijuana. There is also a 9mm automatic handgun.

 

Your jacket could be arranged so you could stuff either the money or the plastic bag discreetly inside, but not both (putting both the money and the bag in your jacket would make it look obvious you were hiding things there). You could use your jacket as a sack for everything but the suitcase, but that might also be suspicious or memorable. The gun can be slipped in your waistband discretely in any of these scenarios. You left your cell phone at home.

 

What would you do?

[John Cuthber]

Close the suitcase, take it to the police and hope to claim a reward as well as the satisfaction of helping reduce crime in the area.

Of course, that might be bollocks, but it's what I would say I would do.

[Mr Skeptic]

I would not take a suitcase full of drugs to a police station.

 

Now, the money in this case doesn't belong to anyone: you certainly can't return it to its rightful owner. I'd take the money, being careful not to contaminate anything with prints or DNA, and either keep it or donate it to charity. This is probably illegal, but that doesn't make it immoral. I consider our drug laws immoral; the real crime happens when drug users get caught by law enforcement.

[Phi for All]

I'd take the money, being careful not to contaminate anything with prints or DNA, and either keep it or donate it to charity.

Do you have any ethical dilemma with leaving drugs and a (most likely) loaded firearm for someone else (possibly kids) to find?

[Moontanman]

aaah, what suitcase?

[Mr Skeptic]

Do you have any ethical dilemma with leaving drugs and a (most likely) loaded firearm for someone else (possibly kids) to find?

 

Kids know what drugs and firearms are. Anyhow, an anonymous tip can probably solve that problem, or alternatively dumping the remainder somewhere.

[Phi for All]

Kids know what drugs and firearms are.

Personally, I have more of a problem with leaving anything behind for kids to find than I have with taking any of it. I guess I feel like once I made this my problem by intervening in any way, I would want to try hard to avoid it becoming someone else's problem.

 

Anyhow, an anonymous tip can probably solve that problem, or alternatively dumping the remainder somewhere.

I would still worry about any contents I left behind being found by someone while I figured out how to leave a tip anonymously. Dumping the remainder increases the chances of being seen with the suitcase, which would be memorable in this setting.

 

I do agree with you about the money, though. Once you decide to do anything other than report it like John Cuthber, you can't realistically consider returning it to its owners (any of the contents, actually).

[Moontanman]

To be honest the gun is the real kicker here, the money I could probably see keeping, the pot might be kept or thrown away depending on the individual but the gun presents some real problems. Keeping the gun is unthinkable, a gun could be traced back to crimes unknown and implicate you if you had the gun in your possession. Just leaving the gun is equally untenable, a small child could pick it up and kill themselves or some one else. Destroying the gun could absolve you of any connection to it but the gun could be key piece of evidence in one or more crimes that could very well prevent more crimes if the police got the gun. Turning in the suitcase and it's contents is the only course of action acceptable to my own sense of morality.

[toastywombel]

I would take the marijuana and the gun. I would return the briefcase full of money to the police station. Then I would sell the gun.

Finally I would wrap the marijuana in a paper and light the marijuana on fire to insure no one got a hold of any illegal drugs.

[Phi for All]

To be honest the gun is the real kicker here, the money I could probably see keeping, the pot might be kept or thrown away depending on the individual but the gun presents some real problems. Keeping the gun is unthinkable, a gun could be traced back to crimes unknown and implicate you if you had the gun in your possession. Just leaving the gun is equally untenable, a small child could pick it up and kill themselves or some one else. Destroying the gun could absolve you of any connection to it but the gun could be key piece of evidence in one or more crimes that could very well prevent more crimes if the police got the gun. Turning in the suitcase and it's contents is the only course of action acceptable to my own sense of morality.

Well crap, I thought I had it all figured out for myself until you posted this! I was going to risk being seen hiding it all in my jacket, leaving the suitcase empty. Late at night the risk was acceptable.

 

I would keep the money, give the pot to some folks I know who partake, and then disassemble the gun and throw away a couple of pieces a day until it was gone. Like you, I didn't want to be caught with a weapon that might have a bad history. And I don't need a handgun in my house even if it's clean.

 

Like Mr Skeptic, I can't contact the real owners, and they gave up possession when they tossed it out the window of their car (litterbugs!). I don't want to turn in anything but the full contents to the police for fear that the bad guys might find out and know I have some of their stuff (I have a family to protect). I can't leave anything but the suitcase for anyone else to find. I don't really want to turn in anything but the gun to the police and I thought getting rid of it piece by piece was the answer, but then you had to mention that the gun might be evidence in a trial, and I hadn't considered that angle.

 

Now I have to rethink the whole thing. I'm still a little iffy on turning the whole thing in because of possible reprisals, so I may think about a way to make an anonymous tip about where to find the handgun and where I got it. Or I may have to return the whole thing anonymously. Damn you, Moontanman!

[Moontanman]

Yeah, doing the right thing is a bitch, just wrap up the suitcase and it's contents and ship it to me, I'll do the right thing, no, really i will!

[Phi for All]

Yeah, doing the right thing is a bitch, just wrap up the suitcase and it's contents and ship it to me, I'll do the right thing, no, really i will!

"Hello, police? I'm calling anonymously from a payphone about this guy in southeastern North Carolina who has a gun in a suitcase...."

[Moontanman]

I knew I shouldn't have filled out the forms with my real location!

[John Cuthber]

I don't understand Mr Skeptic's assertion that "Now, the money in this case doesn't belong to anyone:".

How did that happen. If it's stolen then it belongs to whoever it was stolen from. If it was freshly minted then it belongs to the treasury.

 

It might legitimately belong to the guy who chucked it.

Imagine I'm a wealthy businessman who likes to relax at the weekends by smoking dope.

I went out to get the year's supply and, on the way home I was spotted by the police. They wanted to talk to me about an unpaid parking fine.

If they catch me with that case I'm deep in the S*** so I chuck it. I had the leftover cash from the deal and the gun I carry for personal protetion on such deals.

I decided to lose them rather than get caught with them

The money is perfectly legitimately mine.

[Mr Skeptic]

I don't understand Mr Skeptic's assertion that "Now, the money in this case doesn't belong to anyone:".

 

Well, the fact of the matter is, you don't know if the money was acquired legitimately by the owner of the case, or perhaps stolen, or due to an illegal trade. Most likely the police will want to lay claim to the money, but it is doubtful that it belongs to them. As for the owner of the case, he purposefully dropped the case, presumably leaving no id for someone to find the owner. Finders keepers, losers weepers. This is ancient common law, and applies after you have made a reasonable attempt to return the property to its rightful owner. I suppose you could take it to the police and ask them to look for prints so they can return it to the owner, or put an ad in the paper, "found lost case full of drugs and money, would the owner please contact me at 1-800-I-WANT-TO-GO-TO-JAIL".

 

In practice, this money is either going to the police, to yourself (or whomever you donate it to), or, if you leave it, to the next person to find it. And if it goes to the police, they will attempt to fine and/or imprison the owner of the suitcase.

[Phi for All]

I don't understand Mr Skeptic's assertion that "Now, the money in this case doesn't belong to anyone:".

How did that happen. If it's stolen then it belongs to whoever it was stolen from. If it was freshly minted then it belongs to the treasury.

 

It might legitimately belong to the guy who chucked it.

Imagine I'm a wealthy businessman who likes to relax at the weekends by smoking dope.

I went out to get the year's supply and, on the way home I was spotted by the police. They wanted to talk to me about an unpaid parking fine.

If they catch me with that case I'm deep in the S*** so I chuck it. I had the leftover cash from the deal and the gun I carry for personal protetion on such deals.

I decided to lose them rather than get caught with them

The money is perfectly legitimately mine.

Was that you in the first car, John Cuthber? In that case, you should know that a public path is not a storage area. Once you pitch that suitcase out where anyone can find it, it's up to the ethics of the person who finds it to decide who it belongs to. There's no way to contact you, short of placing an ad in the newspaper (can you imagine?).

 

And remember, since I found it, I know the circumstances surrounding its leaving your possession. I know you're a criminal of some sort, or would be if the police had caught you with the case. This means you forced me to fear dealing with you. I can't know what kind of reaction you might have to me returning your property. I'm the kind of person who will find a $100 on the floor of a supermarket and turn it in to lost and found, but these circumstances are vastly different due to the possible repercussions of my normal moral options.

[waitforufo]

If you watch the program COPS when the police ask a suspect..

 

Why do you have a gun?

 

Why do you have these drugs.

 

If you are not selling these drugs, why do you have all of this money?

 

And what do they always answer?

 

I found it.

 

If you pick up the suitcase, I hope you come up with a better story.

[John Cuthber]

"Finders keepers, losers weepers. This is ancient common law... "

No, it's called "theft by finding"

"...and applies after you have made a reasonable attempt to return the property to its rightful owner. "

Exactly my point. Failing to hand it to the police is failing to make a reasonable attempt.

You could be held liable by the rightful owner (i.e. whoever the $ was stolen from.)

The only legally defensible position is to hand it in. If it's not claimed then you get it legitimately (after 6 months IIRC). And, as you say, the guy who chucked it isn't going to ask the police for it back.

Edited March 6, 2010 by John Cuthber

[Phi for All]

No, it's called "theft by finding"

Interesting. That's a UK law that seems to have no counterpart elsewhere. But I fail to see how that would encourage you to turn the whole suitcase in to the police and risk arrest.

 

Exactly my point. Failing to hand it to the police is failing to make a reasonable attempt.

I'm not sure "reasonable attempt" is defined that way exactly. If I run up to the street level, after hearing the owner's car speed away, and find that he is out of earshot and line of sight, are you saying that the only other recourse is to risk being arrested? That doesn't seem "reasonable".

 

You could be held liable by the rightful owner (i.e. whoever the $ was stolen from.)

How exactly would he hold you liable? Are you saying he would report someone having stolen a suitcase he threw out his window while being chased by the police?

 

The only legally defensible position is to hand it in.

Legally, I agree. Ethically, I'm not so sure. Like Mr Skeptic, I don't think our drug laws are ethical at all.

 

If it's not claimed then you get it legitimately (after 6 months IIRC). And, as you say, the guy who chucked it isn't going to ask the police for it back.

I don't think the police would give you anything but the suitcase itself after no one claimed it. You'd need a permit in the US for the gun, that much pot is illegal, and since the money was found with the drugs, I'm betting you wouldn't ever see that either.

[John Cuthber]

"Interesting. That's a UK law that seems to have no counterpart elsewhere. But I fail to see how that would encourage you to turn the whole suitcase in to the police and risk arrest."

 

Theft is taking someone else's property without their consent and with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.

The definition is pretty much the same in all countries.

If you take the case you have done exactly that, unless you can show that your intention was not to keep it.

Its' definitely not yours.

They did not consent you you taking it- they may have left it because they were tired of carrying it or they may have left it for someone (in particular) to pick up. The police chase may have been a coincidence.

Handing it to the police proves that you don't plan to keep it.

 

By keeping it I would risk arrest for theft.

I'm not risking arrest by handing it in. They can't arrest me for finding a suitcase. What would the charge be?

On that account you cant use this as a defence

"I'm not sure 'reasonable attempt' is defined that way exactly. If I run up to the street level, after hearing the owner's car speed away, and find that he is out of earshot and line of sight, are you saying that the only other recourse is to risk being arrested? "

 

So, no it doesn't seem reasonable to me at all.

You have made precisely no attempt to trace the owner; even running up to street level isn't a real attempt as you knew you wouldn't find them (because you heard them drive away).

 

"How exactly would he hold you liable? Are you saying he would report someone having stolen a suitcase he threw out his window while being chased by the police?"

You seem not to have read this bit of what I wrote. "(i.e. whoever the $ was stolen from.)"

 

I think we can assume that the driver is not the legitimate owner of the money.

The person from whom the money was stolen is (which I grant you is only one possible reason for it being there, but it makes sense if the driver decided to throw it) will probably have reported that theft to the police.

It's possible that he's the sort of person who notes the serial numbers (I gather that the banks sometimes do this too).

You spend that money and you have to explain how you got it. "I found it" isn't going to help you there.

 

Re.

"I don't think the police would give you anything but the suitcase itself after no one claimed it. You'd need a permit in the US for the gun, that much pot is illegal, and since the money was found with the drugs, I'm betting you wouldn't ever see that either."

 

The police are obliged to give you a receipt for items handed in- that would include the value of the cash in the case. If it's not claimed in 6 months then the finder gets to keep it.

I'd get the money back and I wouldn't want the gun or the dope.

 

OK it's possible that someone might find out about the cash, make up some story, go to the police, explain how much money there was and how it came to be thrown out of a car the police were chasing... and claim that it was their money- but would you risk that?

Edited March 7, 2010 by John Cuthber

[Phi for All]

They can't arrest me for finding a suitcase. What would the charge be?

On that account you cant use this as a defence

The charge would be Theft By Finding, and in the case of this youth from the UK, you could end up with a public record of the affair. Though the charges in this case were later dropped, this is exactly why I wouldn't want a record of it on file.

 

And what if the police suspect there was something else in the suitcase that I took? At the least they may hold me for suspicion and possibly get a warrant to search my house. More public record that the bad guy could trace back to me.

 

I think we can assume that the driver is not the legitimate owner of the money.

The person from whom the money was stolen is (which I grant you is only one possible reason for it being there, but it makes sense if the driver decided to throw it) will probably have reported that theft to the police.

It's possible that he's the sort of person who notes the serial numbers (I gather that the banks sometimes do this too).

You spend that money and you have to explain how you got it. "I found it" isn't going to help you there.

Actually, I made the assumption that the money was gotten from dealing drugs, making the driver the legitimate owner of the money (but not if the money is found with the drugs - I'm pretty sure both would be confiscated by the police if they assumed he was a dealer) and that the man ditched the suitcase because any single piece of what was in the case would be enough to get him into huge trouble. We don't know what the police were chasing him for, but we can assume that even having just the cash without any explanation for it would at least give the police probable cause to investigate him more deeply, possibly finding the rest of his drugs at his house. The pot had to go no matter what and the gun would be illegal also if he had no permit.

 

The police are obliged to give you a receipt for items handed in- that would include the value of the cash in the case. If it's not claimed in 6 months then the finder gets to keep it.

I'd get the money back and I wouldn't want the gun or the dope.

I could see this as a good solution (since I feel the same way you do about all three items), but turning it in creates a record, and you have to remember that we're dealing with a potentially violent criminal here. What if he waits patiently for six months, allows me to collect the unclaimed money, and then comes to my house to get it back? That's an unacceptable risk for me.

 

OK it's possible that someone might find out about the cash, make up some story, go to the police, explain how much money there was and how it came to be thrown out of a car the police were chasing... and claim that it was their money- but would you risk that?

No, I don't think that likely, but as I said earlier, if this becomes public record then you run the risk of losing your anonymity. I'd have to look up the policy regarding unclaimed found property, but I still think the money would be tied to the drugs and you'd get nothing but the suitcase, along with a record for someone to follow back to you.

[John Cuthber]

The important bit from the link you posted was "Merseyside Police dropped the case".

Just because some over zealous copper F***ed up isn't grounds to dump the whole system.

Anyway,as I said, you would definitely be liable for arrest if you didn't hand it in and the coppers wouldn't then drop the charges.

 

I'm also puzzled about the idea that someone goes into a police station ans says.

"Hi, I'd not like to say who I am, but I'd like to know who handed in the money I threw out of a car. You should remember it- it was in a suitcase with a bunch of drugs and a gun. No, I'd rather not leave my details- but could you just let me know his name and address?

Thanks."

 

How is the car driver going to track me?

Is he really going to wait 6 months then stake out every police station in the area while waiting for someone who he has never seen to come out with a bag of money (not the original case, I'm not that dumb)?

I am prepared to take that risk.

 

My opinion of the police might not be high but I know they understand the importance of anonymity. They don't publicise lists saying

"Mr J blogs, 23 the high st. Sometown handed in a bag of cash, dope and weaponry. Would the owners please form an orderly queue."

 

"And what if the police suspect there was something else in the suitcase that I took?"

Like what? If I'm handing in the money what would I have kept?

They would need some sort of evidence to get a warrant; there isn't any so they couldn't get one.

[Phi for All]

How is the car driver going to track me?

Perhaps it's different in the UK, but in the states we have a Public Police Record that's available:

 

When it comes to completeness in checking violation of law or regulation, an excellent resource is found in Public Police Records. It is different from Criminal Records in that it is not just about crime and conviction.

Anytime you have any interaction or engagement with the police, it will likely go into your police records.

Although public police records are tasked differently from state to state, it generally means all reports recorded by police, including complaints and requests submitted by the public. This inherently implies that anything that is not in norm or order is deemed to be under police charter. Some prominent enforcement-related features in police records are arrest, driving violations, violence, sex offenses, gangs, drugs fraud and public disturbance. Other informative type data are also listed for example firearms permit, traffic accidents,

address history

, family members,

lost and found

, missing person, property and so forth.

 

Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?Free-Public-Police-Records?&id=878337

 

So the bad guy doesn't even have to go down to the station, he can just get his lawyer to check the public records (it does require some credentials, you can't just look it up online). I'd have to assume that bad guys might have access to lawyers with similar scruples.

 

Again, for me this would be about acceptable risk. Once I decide to do anything about the case at all, I have to decide if even doing the right legal thing would have repercussions for me and my family. Ethically, for me, throwing the suitcase out the window removes most of the ownership questions. The rest is just a matter of how much risk is involved in keeping any of the contents, or letting any of the contents fall into the hands of children.

[John Cuthber]

So much for "the land of the free".

If you have police you can't trust then the whole system goes to pot and there's no reason to hand things in to them.

I wonder if they realise this.

Of course, I could hand it in without giving my name- that loses me any chance of getting a reward or I could try these people

http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/giving-information.html

[Genecks]

If I couldn't get caught, and there was no way of being caught (such as money serial numbers, it's fake money, etc..), I'd take the money.

I got enough guns and drugs for all I care.

 

Maybe I would take the entire suitcase.

I could probably get away with that.

 

Maybe they ditched the suitcase in hopes that someone would indeed take the entire suitcase, which would have been the best way to have disposed of the items and all of its contents.

 

To get away with taking all of the money would mean being able to take the time to take out the money and put it in my coat.

And that takes a decent amount of time. You have to organize things, spend time making sure it's flat, etc...

It'd probably be easier to grab the suitcase and walk away.

 

I'd do the risky thing and take the suitcase.

I'd see if I could melt down the gun.

 

If the gun were super classy, similar to the caster gun from outlaw star, I'd probably keep it. That's a super rare gun.

And I'd take the weed and dispose of it in a public bathroom at a later time.

I'm sure that throwing away the suitcase before garbage day means someone would grab it before it went to the garbagemen.

Leave a note on it saying, "Free suitcase to good home." Classy.

Another option is buying a similar suitcase and keeping the receipt, thus explaining why you have that particular type of suitcase.

It'd be problematic, because I suspect there would be traces of marijuana and gun residue in it.

 

I think people can get away with crimes if they are smart about it.

Shows like Law & Order were created to scare the general public into not committing crimes.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Genecks