Disproving the pale blue dot

[Genecks]

Consider that Earth is a pale blue dot in the eyes of an observer from a distance.

 

Could said observer whom is technologically advanced use optical technology to trace physical items over a long range and test for certain geometric shapes that may be intelligible, including shapes with dynamic features (aka: moving objects with wheels)?

 

Surely, if there is an object with wheels, I can assume another species of intelligence from a far-away land would recognize us as somewhat intelligible.

[toastywombel]

I think the 'aliens' might look at us as somewhat intelligible, but it might be in the same way we see ants as somewhat intelligible.

[swansont]

Diffraction would make this difficult. Very roughly speaking, s/r = wavelength/diameter, were s is the size of the object you want to see. To resolve 1 km features at a distance of 1 light-year, you'd need a (perfect) lens several million kilometers across.

 

Better resolution requires a proportionally larger lens.

 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/phyopt/Raylei.html

[toastywombel]

Diffraction would make this difficult. Very roughly speaking, s/r = wavelength/diameter, were s is the size of the object you want to see. To resolve 1 km features at a distance of 1 light-year, you'd need a (perfect) lens several million kilometers across.

 

Better resolution requires a proportionally larger lens.

 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/phyopt/Raylei.html

 

Well if there is a alien civilization as advanced as I think the OP is suggesting, they might not use lenses made out of glass and plastic as we do. So a perfect lens millions of kilometers across for such a galactic civilization might not seem unreasonable.

 

Maybe if one were to harness the power of a supernova or several stars and create a magnetic field that serves as the lens as opposed to glass. You never know.

[Sisyphus]

How many photons get reflected off the wheel of a car? Of that number, what proportion make it into the collector of a telescope of 1 light year away? (Each square meter of collector would receive about 1/1.15*10^32 of the photons from a source 1 light year distant.)

 

How far away are these hypothetical observers?

[Mr Skeptic]

I think they'd have trouble seeing even continent sized structures. On the other hand, they could probably detect some giveaway chemicals such as oxygen and fluorocarbons, especially if they can detect us as a "dot" rather than being blinded by the sun.

[John Cuthber]

They might be able to see that our atmosphere (which is big so they might see it easily) contains significant quantities of both methane and oxygen. Those two compounds should react, so the only way they can both be there is if something odd is happening.

They might deduce that there's probably life here. To see any evidence of us, and in particular our intelligence, would be much harder

[Mr Skeptic]

To see any evidence of us, and in particular our intelligence, would be much harder

 

Oh, were there natural processes that produce fluorocarbons? I thought those would be a giveaway of our technology.

[John Cuthber]

There aren't many natural fluoro-organics and they are all biologically produced anyway so they would be evidence for life. It's just there's a lot more methane so it would be much easier to spot. If our aliens did spot the CFCs they could be pretty sure they were made by technology but they might not be sure about intelligence.

[Zolar V]

Here is a question ill pose for you.

Why would an alien race with the kind of technology to be able to peer out across the cosmos, care about ONE planet that has the potential for life?

if they did have the technology to see our planet, they would also see that there is no life or rather uinhabitable planets within the rest of the solar system. The only reason i would see they would have the optical technology is to be able to survay the galaxies for potential threats to their civilization, ie multiple planets in a solar system that are populated and multiple solar systems in a cluster that are inhabited.

they would see our 1 panet and take no notice because it is just 1.

[vordhosbn]

ZolarV, you are making an awful lot of assumptions here... :}

[Zolar V]

I see your point of veiw, but i dont believe so.

I based all of these predictions on previous human civilizations.

The only real presumption is the IF about intelligent creatures.

 

I mean seriously, IF there are A speices of Aliens, THEN there is more than just one.

IF 1 species is advanced enough to look at us, then there are others.

and so on.

In reality our obsession with "aliens, and aliens are coming to destroy us" is just a wildly fanatical obsession with thinking that we are the biggest thing on the block.

 

Seriously, if there is A alien species out there, then there are more. and thier concerns are going to be to those other alien species that are as big (spanning across solar systems/galaxies) then they would be of A single pale blue dot.

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Roflmycopter.

I seem to be a Thread Reaper of late.

kinda annoying..

Spell check definitions of Roflmycopter;

Microfloppies

Helicopter

Copter

Pterodactyl

Archeopteryx

^^ don't know what the hell that last one means.

[Radical Edward]

it would be infinitely easier to just pick up radio signals and things like that, than actually try to resolve something on a planet. Another thing you have to remember is that not only do you have to resolve the image, but you also have to know where to look, and when you are light years away, there are an awful lot of earth sized spots to look at, and they are all very difficult to focus on (moving targets, very narrow focal plane)

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Here is a question ill pose for you.

Why would an alien race with the kind of technology to be able to peer out across the cosmos, care about ONE planet that has the potential for life?

if they did have the technology to see our planet, they would also see that there is no life or rather uinhabitable planets within the rest of the solar system. The only reason i would see they would have the optical technology is to be able to survay the galaxies for potential threats to their civilization, ie multiple planets in a solar system that are populated and multiple solar systems in a cluster that are inhabited.

they would see our 1 panet and take no notice because it is just 1.

 

what if they have never found another planet with life on it? they would be very interested then, I'm sure. And they could be exploring like we do. We have lots of technologies to see stars, galaxies, and yes, even planets, and we're not doing it all to look for threats to our civilisation.

[Zolar V]

so you propose that the alien species has a similar technological level as we do?

if that would be the case then they would find our "pale blue dot" exciting and intriguing.

for the most part the size of the alien race will have much more to do in whether or not they would care to focus in on earth.

[insane_alien]

so you propose that the alien species has a similar technological level as we do?

 

it's not a technological limit

[Zolar V]

Of course its not a limit, I simply meant that if they have a similar technology to ours then they would be interested in our planet. if they had a greater technological level then why wouldn't their optical technology follow suit and become more advanced then ours?

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what if they have never found another planet with life on it? they would be very interested then, I'm sure. And they could be exploring like we do. We have lots of technologies to see stars, galaxies, and yes, even planets, and we're not doing it all to look for threats to our civilisation.

 

It should be reasonable to assume that if they were at a technological level similar to us that they would be interested in us. However if their technology level was greater than ours then so would their optical technology. if their optical technology is greater why would they have not found another civilization?

 

It seems apparent to me that the technology level of an alien species should correlate to its size. Because if the race spans over a wide range of planets or solar systems then it has a access to a wide variety of natural resources. thus being said, If there is 1 alien race that spans multiple planets up to solar systems then there would be more. It seems obvious that their Size is what would make us either an interesting object or just another fledgling civilization.

 

IE you have 4 small civies, 4 medium civies, and 4 large civies.

If the large civilization was to peer out and see a small civilization, it would not look at the target as a threat, it would look at it either with indifference or as a potential resource trove. there would only be 2 or 3 reasons why a large civilization would be looking out to begin with.

1.) resources

2.) potential hostile/ally civilizations

3.) some sort of scientific approach to cartography.

 

If you had a medium civilization and it was to see a small civilization then it would be more concerned than the large civilization about its existence.

it could see the small civilization as a resource trove, ally, or hostile civilization. However it would be much more concerned over another Medium or Large civilization then it would be of the small one.

 

If you had a small Civilization and it looked out and saw a medium or large civilization it would try to A, avoid contact at all costs, or B. try to gain an ally. If it saw another small civilization then it would attempt to follow the 3 main things that it would want to do,

1. resources

2. hostile/ally civilizations

3. gain technology and catalog it.

[insane_alien]

no, there is a limit to resolution achievable by a lense of reasonable dimensions, but it isn't technological, it is physical.

 

the sound 'barrier' was a technological limit. the speed of light is not.

[Zolar V]

You can see all the above behaviors being exhibited by past civilizations, such as the Roman Empire (being a large civi) and pre-roman era civilizations (for the medium to small) such as the phonetician, Greek city-states, Egyptian. Mesopotamian. forwarding through history, you also see this in the German City states of the medieval era, and you see this with France in Medieval/Renaissance.

Forwarding again.

You see this in many of the American Indian tribes.