Rewriting History, Conservative Style; The Texas Textbook Massacre

[iNow]

You da man, John. I love those posts from you... Always have.

 

 

I must, however, point out that there is neither anything noble nor anything principled about what is (and has been) happening on the Texas State Board of Education... At least, not among those who seem to be having the greatest influence. There are a few islands of excellence amongst that particular sea of mediocrity, but I fear sea level has been rising for quite some time now, and the children of this vast state are paying the price.

[JohnB]

I don't think I was quite clear in my previous post. I was trying to point out that "revisionism" has been going on for hundreds of years. King John, rather than being the defender of the people, became the bad guy.

 

There will always be people who wish to rewrite history to suit their own agenda. They have always been there.

 

It would appear that in this case they are winning. If not in enough numbers to control the board, then at least by yelling loudly enough to make the others cower.

 

As I said earlier, the problem is not that "right wing" nutjobs can unduly influence the board. The problem is that "nutjobs" can unduly influence the board.

 

Fix that fault in the system and the problem goes away.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how much influence a vocal minority seem to have in the US. I would have thought that they'd have been ignored ages ago.

 

We have the same types down here, it's just that we ignore them.

[The Bear's Key]

You failed to mention

Yes I did.

 

The "new-and-improved" gerrymandering is just the same old stuff but served up by the other side. The district into which I now find myself gerrymandered into has some narrow connectors that are a few hundred feet wide! If Texas reverts to voting Democratic, it will once again take quite a while to make our elected officials reflect the will of the people.

 

Kinda sucks.

Yeah they both suck.

 

As I said earlier, the problem is not that "right wing" nutjobs can unduly influence the board. The problem is that "nutjobs" can unduly influence the board.

QF-effin'-T.

 

Such a process (and other important government services) needs to be far more open to public scrutiny -- before/during/after.

[jryan]

Such a process (and other important government services) needs to be far more open to public scrutiny -- before/during/after.

 

I find this statement to be a bit silly. The fact that we are discussing the topic based on news coverage about the process is clear evidence that the process is open to public scrutiny.

[ecoli]

I find this statement to be a bit silly. The fact that we are discussing the topic based on news coverage about the process is clear evidence that the process is open to public scrutiny.

 

ex-post, perhaps. Was the decision making process largely a public forum, or were they just informed about it afterwards?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

There will be a public comment period before the final decision in May.

[jryan]

ex-post, perhaps. Was the decision making process largely a public forum, or were they just informed about it afterwards?

 

It's always been a public as far as I can remember. There usually is news about these Texas meetings due to the overall effect their decisions have on the aggregate national curriculum. The hearings themselves are carried on Texas public access television as it is really a state issue that just happens to effect other states to the extent that those other state's apathy allows.

 

As Cap'n pointed out, there is public response time for these hearings.

[ecoli]

It's always been a public as far as I can remember. There usually is news about these Texas meetings due to the overall effect their decisions have on the aggregate national curriculum. The hearings themselves are carried on Texas public access television as it is really a state issue that just happens to effect other states to the extent that those other state's apathy allows.

 

As Cap'n pointed out, there is public response time for these hearings.

Ah. I was under the impression that this was a done deal. Thanks for the education.

[jackson33]

The Largest Publishers of Text books are, Bedford, Freeman & Worth; Cengage Learning, Elsevier, the McGraw-Hill Companies, Pearson; and John Wiley & Sons, most publishing for Schools around the world.

 

The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. provides information services and products to the education, financial services, and business information markets worldwide....

 

The McGraw-Hill Education segment consists of School Education Group, which provides teaching and learning materials for pre-kindergarten through secondary school, as well as assessment and reporting services; and Higher Education, Professional, and International Group that offers textbooks and other resources to the college and university, professional, international, and adult education markets.[/Quote]

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=mhp

 

In the US, there are thousands of "SCHOOL DISTRICTS'. Since we're talking Texas, there are over a thousand alone. Each district is independent of all others and overseen by 'The Texas Education Agency', who has the authority to 'SELECT' School books for each district (Not true in all States). These "nut jobs" are elected by 15 Regions, made of parts of the 1000 plus districts, to represent that region and then overseen by the Commissioner of Education, appointed by the Governor. There authority is over Public Schools, not private of religious school.

 

The one "nut job" that is being discussed in Cynthia Dunbar, a Lawyer and Author and member of that TEA Board, and yes she graduated Regent University School of Law, Pat Robertson's university, not normally acceptable in the US Educational Public School System. At 46, she fits the Sarah Palin profile, for a Conservative or as she is described a "Constitutionality".

 

Her quote for change on the "Age of Enlightenment"

 

“explain the impact of Enlightenment ideas from John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Charles de Montesquieu, Jean Jacques Rousseau, and Thomas Jefferson on political revolutions from 1750 to the present.” was changed to “explain the impact of the writings of John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Charles de Montesquieu, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and Sir William Blackstone. on political revolutions from 1750 to the present.”[/Quote]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Dunbar

 

While I disagree, since Jefferson was most certainly involved of both the US and French Revolutions and the underlying motivation was Jefferson being credited with coining the 'Separation of State and Church', seem unjust. Her quote may be reasonable for his contributions on Enlightenment, leading up to those two Revolutions. Jefferson and ALL the hundreds of other contributions involved in US History are left untouched.

 

Anyone interested in the Texas Educational System or districts;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_districts_in_Texas

 

For other States or Territories;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_school_districts_in_the_United_States

 

My point; While the Texas Board, was highly publicized, publishers of these text books are as concerned with California (probably more so) and each district where applicable (NY CITY includes all Schools in one district) and may make accommodations to sell a large number of books, but the message of the text content will not be. Remember with California's demographics, many items pertaining to Latinos will be different than those requested from Wyoming.

[Moontanman]

Wow! Jackson, I read your link she "Dunbar" really is a religious nutcase. A very scary religious nutcase.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Dunbar

 

Very disturbing she would have any influence at all in school books or teaching anything much less all this

 

In 2006, Dunbar won the Republican nomination for the Texas State Board of Education, saying voters responded to her because she supports teaching intelligent design in science classes.[4] In the general election that year, she defeated Libertarian Martin Thomen, a clerk, with 225,839, 70.38% to 95,034, 29.62%.[5].

 

Her 2008 book One Nation Under God advocates that the Christian religion should be in the public square more. In addition, she has been criticized for a section of the book that called public education a "subtly deceptive tool of perversion" as well as saying "The establishment of public schools is unconstitutional and even 'tyrannical'."[6]

 

In early 2008, Dunbar ran for the Republican nomination for the United States House of Representatives representing Texas's 22nd congressional district, but eventually endorsed Shelley Sekula-Gibbs.[7]

 

In late 2008, she wrote an article on the Christian Worldview Network website saying that a terrorist attack on America during the first six months of an Obama administration would more likely "be a planned effort by those with whom Obama truly sympathizes to take down the America that is threat to tyranny."[8] Though Dunbar was criticized, she refused to retract the claim saying "I don't have anything in there that would be retractable."[8]

 

Currently, she serves as Visiting Associate Professor of Law at Liberty University School of Law in Lynchburg, Virginia teaching Constitutional Law. http://www.liberty.edu/academics/law/index.cfm?PID=19413

[ecoli]

I love the irony of calling public schools unconstitutional, yet she's a head of the public schools. Yet another example of power corrupting?

[Sisyphus]

I love the irony of calling public schools unconstitutional, yet she's a head of the public schools. Yet another example of power corrupting?

 

Or maybe all these changes are actually just an attempt to sabotage the institution itself.

[swansont]

 

In the US, there are thousands of "SCHOOL DISTRICTS'. Since we're talking Texas, there are over a thousand alone. Each district is independent of all others and overseen by 'The Texas Education Agency', who has the authority to 'SELECT' School books for each district (Not true in all States). These "nut jobs" are elected by 15 Regions, made of parts of the 1000 plus districts, to represent that region and then overseen by the Commissioner of Education, appointed by the Governor. There authority is over Public Schools, not private of religious school.

 

And because they select the books for the whole state, rather than the choice being district-by-district, their decisions influence what goes in the books. If you publish a textbook that doesn't fit their standards, you lose out on a large bloc of potential sales. So there's huge economic pressure to conform.

 

 

The one "nut job" that is being discussed in Cynthia Dunbar, a Lawyer and Author and member of that TEA Board, and yes she graduated Regent University School of Law, Pat Robertson's university, not normally acceptable in the US Educational Public School System. At 46, she fits the Sarah Palin profile, for a Conservative or as she is described a "Constitutionality".

 

Don McLeroy is also being discussed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_McLeroy

[jackson33]

swansont; That's exactly why I've mentioned the publishers compliance, now for the third time. However, what's being said (the media complaint) to influence what goes out to other States, may not be factually correct. For instance in this case; If California wished Jefferson to be part of the 'Enlightenment' era, the publishers could comply to both request, say adding back Jefferson's name in the California edition or adding a footnote. There is a very high profit margin in the Publishing business and a little extra cost, not that important. In fact, in this case, I'd bet if any changes are made, it will be in what goes out to Texas only, most not concerned, apathy or not....

 

My discussions have been on Ms. Dunbar, but no doubt McLeroy would be objected to, on this forum, frankly including myself.

 

 

Moon; I can't in good conscience argue FOR Ms. Dunbar or McLeroy for that matter. If parents want their children to learn Creationism, then they can either send them to a religious school, a private school that teaches the subject, home school (as Dunbar did with her kids) or simply bring it up at the dinner table. Texas is part of the 'Bible Belt' and since both these people were elected must be representing those in their region.

 

I followed up a little on her assertion, Public Schools were unconstitutional, since they are not to this day Government Public Schools and either controlled by States, Districts or a combination, especially the curriculum. I don't know anything more Constitutional, than abiding to the restriction offered TO THE FEDERAL. For what it's worth here is her answer;

 

In a phone interview, Dunbar said she does not oppose public education, adding that it would be impossible to eliminate public schools.

 

"We have to work under the current framework," she said.

 

But she prefers more competition for public schools in the form of additional charter schools and providing parents more choices on where to educate their children. [/Quote]

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/6148239.html

[The Bear's Key]

Was the decision making process largely a public forum, or were they just informed about it afterwards?

Point.

 

The hearings themselves are carried on Texas public access television as it is really a state issue that just happens to effect other states to the extent that those other state's apathy allows.

(emphasis mine)

 

It's not fine if what affects the entire nation is only known to citizens of Texas. How would the other states have apathy if they're not even made aware until later? Remember what I said...

 

Such a process (and other important government services) needs to be far more open to public scrutiny -- before/during/after.

 

Certain things have to be made extraordinarily open to scrutiny, not just a broadcast in one state -- but nationally. Everything: recorded, posted online, transcripts.

 

But she prefers more competition for public schools in the form of additional charter schools and providing parents more choices on where to educate their children.

...in the Bible. (to finish her sentence).

[swansont]

swansont; That's exactly why I've mentioned the publishers compliance, now for the third time. However, what's being said (the media complaint) to influence what goes out to other States, may not be factually correct. For instance in this case; If California wished Jefferson to be part of the 'Enlightenment' era, the publishers could comply to both request, say adding back Jefferson's name in the California edition or adding a footnote. There is a very high profit margin in the Publishing business and a little extra cost, not that important. In fact, in this case, I'd bet if any changes are made, it will be in what goes out to Texas only, most not concerned, apathy or not....

 

High profit margin, for the publisher, in non-college textbooks on relatively small print runs? I'll need a cite for that.

[JohnB]

Does anyone else find it strangely odd that the various States will let a religious whacko run roughshod over their curriculum, but if the Feds try to do something intelligent...like...I don't know, introduce meaningful Healthcare reform, so many complain?

 

The mind boggles.

[iNow]

Does anyone else find it strangely odd that the various States will let a religious whacko run roughshod over their curriculum, but if the Feds try to do something intelligent...like...I don't know, introduce meaningful Healthcare reform, so many complain?

 

The mind boggles.

 

Not just odd... I find it infuriating, exasperating, distressing, disheartening, and downright mad.

 

 

The Daily Show weighed in last night. If we can't fix the issue, at least we can laugh at it, a bit:

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-march-17-2010/don-t-mess-with-textbooks

[jackson33]

swansont; Most publishers, don't publish in a single area of the market or in fact is publishing their entire business. I'll use McGraw Hill again, which is very high...

 

 

Fiscal Year

Fiscal Year Ends: 31-Dec

Most Recent Quarter (mrq): 31-Dec-09

 

Profitability

Profit Margin (ttm): 12.27%

Operating Margin (ttm): 21.41%

 

Management Effectiveness

Return on Assets (ttm): 12.69%

Return on Equity (ttm): 46.68%

 

Income Statement

Revenue (ttm): 5.95B

Revenue Per Share (ttm): 19.063

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MHP

 

To repeat a previous post, their profile on the issue...

 

The McGraw-Hill Education segment consists of School Education Group, which provides teaching and learning materials for pre-kindergarten through secondary school, as well as assessment and reporting services; and Higher Education, Professional, and International Group that offers textbooks and other resources to the college and university, professional, international, and adult education markets. [/Quote]

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=MHP

 

Texas ordering books for 4M+ students, all grades, if from McGraw, would probably not have a printing cost differential, that would matter. I doubt if Guam or some self regulated School district ordered 500, with specific changes would be that costly and these books routinely updated from year to year, NOT revised from scratch each year. Thinks these rights were recently fought over in Europe and upheld as private property.

 

Does anyone else find it strangely odd that the various States will let a religious whacko run roughshod over their curriculum, but if the Feds try to do something intelligent...like...I don't know, introduce meaningful Healthcare reform, so many complain? [/Quote]

 

JonhB; Why do you think, "so many" of those people are complaining? Maybe adding a said 30M people to some program, then declared a reduction in the end cost, with increased taxes and increased savings from services, with an 'end result' of Government taking over 1/6th the economy (Obama Fox interview "over time") may be a reason.

 

As said, I don't like the idea of Creationism, being declared a must, in educating kids, but this is a Country full of believers in some religion and districts or States have the right to teach or encourage anything they want. We call that that the 'right of free speech'...

[swansont]

swansont; Most publishers, don't publish in a single area of the market or in fact is publishing their entire business. I'll use McGraw Hill again, which is very high...

 

Since publishing isn't their sole business, much less K-12 textbook publishing, the numbers you quote are worthless. Once cannot tell if their financial services is responsible, though if I had to guess, I'd think that financial services are higher margin than textbook publishing.

 

(This recent earnings summary pegs the financial services operating margin at over 40%, as opposed to the 21.41% for the company as a whole, so I expect profit margin is likewise smaller for publishing)

[Sisyphus]

Publishing in general has a very small or nonexistent profit margin in general, except on big hits, which carry everything else. I don't know about textbooks in particular, though. It might be different.

[jackson33]

swansont; I'm beginning to think your sole point in reading my post, is to find error, which in most cases, you not doing a very good job. I haven't the slightest idea what your driving at but will guess;

 

The publisher of a History Book, or any subject text book, has on hand a general text that may have been revised 100 times over a period of years, sold, resold over years. There are not always royalties involved and the small amount involved in revising naturally or for a specific audience is trivial compared to publishing a Novel, whether they print one thousand or millions for the National needs. Short of maybe a Bible or some religious book, my guess would be these are high valued assets and represent much of their profits, probably over 80% per book printed. Additional most are direct sales, leaving out the middleman.

 

What you have inferred is that these publishers, can't print different books or change insignificant amounts of content for one segment of their customer base and maintain a profit, which is absurd....

 

If your truly interested in Text Book distribution (rather doubt), here is the English version, not much different in the US.

 

The textbooks market does not operate according to the same economic principles as a normal consumer market. First, the end consumers (students) do not select the product, and the people choosing the product (faculty) do not purchase the product. Therefore, price is removed from the purchasing decision, giving the producer (publishers) disproportionate market power to set prices high.[/Quote]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbook

 

Some specialized books, where royalties and authors are involved or where demand is limited can be costly for the publisher, but they are not normally basic text books in there 10th to 30th edition.

 

Right now, textbook publishers are calling the tune. They add as many bells and whistles as they can and pump out new editions as quickly as possible — as a way of making perfectly good textbooks obsolete. Not every book can be cheap. A specialized text that only a few people know how to write and that reaches a small audience will be costly by definition. But there is no reason for an introductory textbook to carry a price tag of, say, $140 in an area like economics where the information changes little from year to year. [/Quote]

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/opinion/25fri4.html?_r=1

[toastywombel]

Not just odd... I find it infuriating, exasperating, distressing, disheartening, and downright mad.

 

 

The Daily Show weighed in last night. If we can't fix the issue, at least we can laugh at it, a bit:

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-march-17-2010/don-t-mess-with-textbooks

 

Ahh, that was a refreshing dose of the daily show.

[swansont]

swansont; I'm beginning to think your sole point in reading my post, is to find error, which in most cases, you not doing a very good job. I haven't the slightest idea what your driving at but will guess;

 

No, but if I find an error or unsubstantiated claim that I think needs support (because it's contrary to some other information I've run across), I will point it out. Your claim is still unsubstantiated.

 

The publisher of a History Book, or any subject text book, has on hand a general text that may have been revised 100 times over a period of years, sold, resold over years. There are not always royalties involved and the small amount involved in revising naturally or for a specific audience is trivial compared to publishing a Novel, whether they print one thousand or millions for the National needs. Short of maybe a Bible or some religious book, my guess would be these are high valued assets and represent much of their profits, probably over 80% per book printed. Additional most are direct sales, leaving out the middleman.

 

80%? Then why are the margins at McGraw Hill so much lower? I don't want a guess, because I think your guess is wrong. I want facts.

 

Publishing 1000 is a lot different than publishing a million — that's the point. There's always overhead, so it's cheaper if you can make more of the identical item. This might not be as crucial in the computer age, but it's still true.

 

What you have inferred is that these publishers, can't print different books or change insignificant amounts of content for one segment of their customer base and maintain a profit, which is absurd....

 

Incorrectly stating my position and then calling it absurd is not a substitute for actually refuting it with sources. It's actually a fallacious effort, called appeal to ridicule.

 

 

If your truly interested in Text Book distribution (rather doubt), here is the English version, not much different in the US.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textbook

 

Some specialized books, where royalties and authors are involved or where demand is limited can be costly for the publisher, but they are not normally basic text books in there 10th to 30th edition.

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/opinion/25fri4.html?_r=1

 

Both of your links are discussing the college textbook market, not the K-12 market, which is what we are discussing.

[Moontanman]

What boggles the mind is not if they make money or if they don't make money, what boggles the mind is that a text book sold in Texas would be different than a text book sold in Maine or California. So history is different depending on where you are? Is biology different in Texas? Did humans coexist with dinosaurs in Utah? Is Math different In NC? It's crazy that text books are changed to reflect local thinking and bias, the very thought of it pisses me off greatly. I don't really care if they can do it and make a profit or not the very act of it is simply WRONG