Rewriting History, Conservative Style; The Texas Textbook Massacre

[ParanoiA]

Funny, from reading the posts here it appears most agree that history is and has been revised regularly. In that vain, it would appear an advantage for various states to use different text books to increase the odds one of them may actually be true. It's more likely that they all contain some element of truth and some element of spin.

 

One of the things I've always loved about Texas is that fiesty independent spirit that just pisses off the collective. Go Texas.

 

These changes sound interesting. Being a Jefferson fan, I'm offended they don't revere the man enough. But studying about the build up to our revolution psychology sounds excellent. And we are a constitutional republic, so it's nice to resize the democracy concept back to proportion. We use democratic concepts throughout the execution of the republic, but we are not a democracy. The constitution shuts that down and plays a far bigger role than democracy.

 

Too bad we don't have more of this all over the country. We are in dire need of individualism and intellectual competition. No one has a monopoly on absolute truth, but to hear liberals complain about this you'd think they believe in such silliness. Yes, other people might want to learn a different piece of history than you. Surprise! We aren't all the same after all. Yay!

 

I believe the bit about civil rights had to do with including more of the partisan politics, which sounds like an increase in accuracy to me, to tell the tale with detail.

 

The coolest thing that could come from all of this, would be to see left wing home schooling take off in response. That would be awesome, and very good for education in this country.

[jackson33]

Here is a list of text books, with prices issue by the Jefferson County High School District, (Louisville Kentucky, year end 2009. Note the many text books with older publishing dates, several dating back to the 1990's. Nothing less that 25.00, then for a 1998 Geometry Guide, with a US History Book first released in 2001, now 60.00 and I assure you has been updated, more than one time. I do not know how much the School is paying, but certainly they should not have been marked up for a profit. I was familiar with College Book Stores (East Texas, supplementary book sales, dictionaries and the like) in the 70's, and they operated on very low profit margins, at that time.

 

 

http://web2.jefferson.k12.ky.us/jchs/textbooklist.pdf

 

For a comparison, here are the current Amazon prices (a retailer) for the top rates non fiction product, generally around 12-14.00 per...

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/53

 

I don't know if this direct link will work, but Amazon has a long list of publisher prices and retails for used TEXT BOOKS, some used in K-12 or Universities today.

 

http://www.fes.follett.com/follett_fes_general/premium-textbook-sale.cfm?P=P1#MCGR

 

In trying to explain the cost of NEW Text books, I don't want to leave the impression, there are no other way to get these books, for students. Aside from each districts system, renting/refunding or charging for damages only, it's pretty rare each student each year would need to buy or use all new text books or even those revisions in Texas would mean a complete changeover to the new edition in a single year, likely over years...

 

 

swansont;

The above was a general post, to show Sisyphus, the differences in Text Books and Novels....

 

I still don't have the slightest idea, what your arguing and frankly your not making a lot of sense to me, heading out in different directions with each post. On one comment; The Text Book business plan is no different in k-12 or for any higher learning facility, but one to this general post list only HS Text.

 

Off to my poker game.....

[Moontanman]

So truth is what you want it to be ParanoiA? I may be more Liberal than Conservative but i do not want what is taught to children to be edited due to politics or religion, can you really say that reality is what ever the majority wants it to be?

 

I guess Japan should be able to teach their kids an alternate history of WW2? Or possibly Germany? I thought that was what the dreaded communist hordes did, so now it's ok for us to do so? BULLSHIT The truth may not always be known in it's entirity but to puposely distort the truth to suit your own personal agenda is SIMPLY WRONG

[ParanoiA]

So truth is what you want it to be ParanoiA? I may be more Liberal than Conservative but i do not want what is taught to children to be edited due to politics or religion, can you really say that reality is what ever the majority wants it to be?

 

I guess Japan should be able to teach their kids an alternate history of WW2? Or possibly Germany? I thought that was what the dreaded communist hordes did, so now it's ok for us to do so? BULLSHIT The truth may not always be known in it's entirity but to puposely distort the truth to suit your own personal agenda is SIMPLY WRONG

 

Hard to argue with such impressive font. But, as I said, it appears everyone already realizes it's effected by politics and religion and I'm not sure how you'd keep from it. After all, this is collective democracy at work at the local level and the people motivated to get on boards and such are generally going to be more politically involved and active. Attend your local PTA meeting and tell me that isn't political.

 

But more importantly, "political" does not imply "fraud". I have a political reason for being here, and so do you, so does that mean everything we say here is a lie? This is akin to GW denialists claiming that the link between science and government funding implies fraud by scientists.

 

This is not an alternate view of the events in our history. It's an alternate emphasis of the events in our history. Remember, we are ignorant about most of human history if you consider every possible population and their entire rise and fall on this planet.

 

The rest of the world was just as busy as America, yet we learn far more about America than anyone else, while still remaining hopelessly ignorant about most of it. And it's practical considering we can only cram so much data in that noggin. So you can learn a ton of stuff shallowly or a focused chunk deeply.

 

We just cherry pick the facts and events that seem pertinent to our culture and our youth - and it's a subjective maneuver right out of the gate. This starts locally. Schools in my neighborhood vary from schools in my old town, let alone state variation. And why do we have schools? It's not just to learn the cold logic of math and english.

 

We need variety. After all, if we had more variety all of this time, they wouldn't have been able to establish the practice of printing the same book for the whole damn country, now would they?

 

Diversity and tolerance my friend. We have many stripes here in this country and they don't deserve to be ignored because some segment of the country has "deemed and passed" that religion and right wing ideologies are stupid.

[Moontanman]

So who ever has the most members is correct? In other words "eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong"? If enough people decided the earth was flat we should allow it to be taught? The sun revolves around the Earth? Lets take a vote! Your label, Liberal or Conservative, should not dictate reality, your beliefs or lack there of should not dictate reality. The truth should be as close as we are able to ascertain, not fluid depending on who is in control or who has the most influence.

[ParanoiA]

So who ever has the most members is correct? In other words "eat shit, a billion flies can't be wrong"? If enough people decided the earth was flat we should allow it to be taught? The sun revolves around the Earth? Lets take a vote! Your label, Liberal or Conservative, should not dictate reality, your beliefs or lack there of should not dictate reality. The truth should be as close as we are able to ascertain, not fluid depending on who is in control or who has the most influence.

 

Dare I point out the obvious? The earth as round *was* taught.

 

You're doing the exact same thing as Texas is doing.

 

Imagine Texas as astounded as you:

 

If enough people decided the earth was round, we should allow it to be taught? Yes, of course.

 

If enough people believe the earth revolves around the sun, we should allow it to be taught? Yes, again.

 

Look, it's real simple. Your beliefs are based on an assumption of evidence based substantiation of reality. I share your assumptions and I believe it is superior. They don't. Their beliefs are based on an assumption of manipulative reality by a deity.

 

Neither of you are factually correct. Neither of you can prove your claim to truth any more than the other. You have equal claim.

 

 

You keep throwing up these examples of teaching fraud, or at least counter to the common understanding of things, and that's a strawman. Again, they aren't proposing to change the factual record, they are proposing to pay attention to this detail, as opposed to that detail. We are and have been doing the same thing when we say pay attention to Jefferson, not Calvin.

 

You, I and the rest of the planet, that hands down knowledge to their offspring, pick and choose which details we want to impart. We always have.

 

Texas has chosen other details that they believe are important and they want those details taught, and other details discarded. Just like we have been choosing details like "democracy" (talk about fraud) and Jefferson and stressing the separation of church and state.

 

Again, you don't have a monopoly on the truth of history. You come at this from the same direction as the rest of us. Your whole belief system is built on knowledge manipulated by those before you...and those before them...and those before them...and so on.

 

How do you get the hubris to deem your view of history as right? How do you know?

[Moontanman]

You misunderstand me, i don't give a rats ass about Jefferson or whether or not he was instrumental in whatever. What I am concerned about is teaching reality based on something other than demonstrable evidence.

 

We can argue all day long who is the most important figure in the formation of the USA and no matter who we decide that is the things that are happening around us will not change. We can fight all day long about trivial details that got us here but when it comes down to one group dictating reality because of ideology or religion because they have that power flags go up in my mind immediately.

 

I know it's a slippery slope argument and normally I would not give it much credence but I feel that indeed once ideology begins to dictate reality it can indeed become a slope that tends to snow ball into a night mare of evidence meaning nothing unless the powers that be agree with it.

 

The woman who is a big part of this trend of ideology dictating reality also thinks creationism is science, a 6,000 year old earth and so on. Do we really give these people such power with out a fight? Do you really think that a spherical Earth was taught just because someone thought it would be better if we taught it? A spherical Earth is an easily demonstrable fact yet that point of view held sway for hundreds if not thousands of years after it was known to be true.

 

If you are ok putting reality in the hands of people who care for nothing other than being in power then you are part of the problem.

[iNow]

One of the things I think you may be forgetting, ParanoiA, is that these are the same people who tried to remove evolution from the curriculum, and who tried to add creationist and ID concepts to biology class. There is often something to be said about interpretation and history, but it's not as if this desire to adjust the curriculum based on ideology is something new for these people.

 

You can respect feisty attitudes and maverick-ness all you want, but when someone wants to teach everyone's children a false view of reality merely because it aligns with the personal mythology of a small handful of people in power, I find that rather disturbing.

 

Now, I'm not saying that my view of history is true and their view is false, but I am calling into question their motives, their intentions, and their sincerity considering their poor prior record on these types of matters. I am challenging the why, not the what... If that makes any sense.

Edited March 19, 2010 by iNow

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

But is the history curriculum a false view or merely a different one?

[iNow]

Cap'n - I was editing my post while you were submitting yours. I re-read what I typed and realized that exact question might be asked. Hopefully what I added when we cross-posted covers your concern.

[swansont]

swansont;

The above was a general post, to show Sisyphus, the differences in Text Books and Novels....

 

I still don't have the slightest idea, what your arguing and frankly your not making a lot of sense to me, heading out in different directions with each post.

 

You claimed that the profit margins on K-12 books was high. I asked you to substantiate this claim. You have not done so.

 

Is that clear enough?

 

 

On one comment; The Text Book business plan is no different in k-12 or for any higher learning facility

 

Unless you are actually in the business, this is yet another unsubstantiated claim which I am not willing to take as true just because you say so.

[ParanoiA]

You misunderstand me, i don't give a rats ass about Jefferson or whether or not he was instrumental in whatever. What I am concerned about is teaching reality based on something other than demonstrable evidence.

 

No, I don't think I misunderstood you at all. But you most definitely did not understand me. This opening sentence demonstrates you didn't soak up my point at all about truth. *You* revere demonstrable evidence, but demonstrable evidence is not objective reality, it's still very subjective. I agree with you, and so does the majority of humans on the planet (arguable actually), but we can't *prove* that demonstrable evidence is truth.

 

And when you consider a belief system that presupposes a manipulative reality by some force we don't understand, it becomes obvious that our appeals to evidence are shallow to them, because that very evidence was manipulated by the deity - in their view, crudely summarized. And we can't prove them wrong.

 

I think you could use some heavy doses of Robert Anton Wilson.

 

Or at least, to understand why others don't hold substantiated evidence in esteem like you and I do.

 

This country was partly founded on the idea that people should be allowed to believe what they want - not persecuted, judged and ignored. That's what allowed the various ideologies to grow and develop here - like liberalism for instance. If we policed what we consider to be 'stupid ideas', we would still be a puritanical bore. Look how far we've come in marginalizing god and religion since the founding. Freedom to believe what you want works very well. If we didn't freeze that in principle, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Freedom to believe stupid shit did this for us.

 

One of the things I think you may be forgetting, ParanoiA, is that these are the same people who tried to remove evolution from the curriculum, and who tried to add creationist and ID concepts to biology class. There is often something to be said about interpretation and history, but it's not as if this desire to adjust the curriculum based on ideology is something new for these people.

 

I agree that appears to be more dangerous, but only because we don't hold their views. We hold the views they are countering, so of course we are threatened by it.

 

I've asked this probably a thousand times...what is there to teach in ID? God did it. How long does that take to say? How much "study" is involved in, 'oh yeah, god did it'?

 

And most creationists that I've argued with don't dispute the evolutionary processes. They just don't agree with Descent of Man, which uses the evolutionary theory. In fact, many of the ones I've debated with understand the micro level of evolutionary theory surprisingly well. I've had to comb through Talkorigins.org many hours to find the crucial pieces to counter their arguments with.

 

So, at the end of the day, they believe in all the machinations we observe that comprise the theory of evolution - they just dispute that complex life came from it. That suggests it is to still be taught - with that reminder thrown about that "god did this".

 

I'm more disturbed by the notion that they believe the earth is 6,000 years old. But, you have to ask yourself, how bad is that, really? How does that create a functional life threatening problem? As noted above, people were taught the earth was flat. So what? One day they were told it was round. They probably said, "no shit?", and asked a hundred questions and moved on.

 

We keep acting like this is some terrifying spiral into death and destruction just because some segment of the country believes differently. We've always had incredible divides of beliefs here, with astonishing degrees of extemism. We have a guy here at work that sincerely believes his government plotted 9/11. Yet, he's a great technician with a wife and couple of kiddos living in a nice neighborhood. People can believe crazy things and it doesn't mean we will all die.

 

You can respect feisty attitudes and maverick-ness all you want, but when someone wants to teach everyone's children a false view of reality merely because it aligns with the personal mythology of a small handful of people in power, I find that rather disturbing.

 

Then you should redirect your objections to that sytem shouldn't you? It's only a false view to you, and they feel you have railroaded them with false views for years in public schools. If a small number of people can effect so many, and this offends you, then I would direct my anger at that. It's not what they believe that's a problem, it's that everyone must conform to it that creates a problem.

 

I have a huge problem with it, albeit a little different. Here in Blue Springs, MO, we have schools that regulate hair cuts and send kids home for "freaky" hair cuts and styles. But since our public school system uses geography to lock you into certain schools, and your tax money is taken to pay for that school, they have done a bang up job of blocking choice. You have to be able to pay your way out of it to choose a school with a rule structure that aligns with your own. It's disgusting. Everyone must conform to this school's ridiculous rules because we can't afford to get out of it.

 

I don't have a problem with schools that employ a strict rule system of clothing, hair cuts, and so forth - because I respect that other parents obviously want this rule. I have a problem with my lack of choice.

 

And that's the problem I see here. It's not Texas' fault publishers want everyone to use the same book. Texas should not have to shut up and conform with the status quo just because XYZ publishing company won't flex for other states.

Edited March 19, 2010 by ParanoiA

[iNow]

This gave me a chuckle. Please note this is not in response to any posters here, just related to the overall thread topic.

 

 

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Here's another I found sad, but true.

 

 

 

 

As an aside, I want to give credit to blackhole for the really clever thread title. Since I live close to where the chainsaw massacre films were made, it makes me smile each time I read it.

[iNow]

http://www.atheists.org/events/Texas_Rally'>http://www.atheists.org/events/Texas_Rally

 

 

JOIN US ON THE STEPS OF THE TEXAS CAPITOL IN AUSTIN

 

Sunday, May 16, 2010 ~ 11:00 AM

Speak out against proposed radical changes to public school textbooks by the State Board of Education!

 

A religious-right faction dominating the Texas Board of Education is trying to distort the content of public school textbooks. This revisionist history includes downplaying or eliminating mention of Enlightenment thinkers including Thomas Jefferson; more emphasis on religious themes and figures (theocrats like John Calvin!); and even attacks on Darwinian evolution.

 

These religious extremists wish to turn our public schools into pulpits for sectarian preaching and an authoritarian social and cultural agenda. Their actions could affect the content of school texts in nearly two-dozen other states as well! We urge you to join us for a peaceful assembly on the steps of the Texas State Capitol in Austin to protest this outrage, and to express support of teaching solid science, balanced history and facts over sectarian religious dogmatism. Stop the Texas Textbook Massacre!

 

Signs and banners will be provided, or bring your own. Suggested slogans and themes include:

 

"We Want Jefferson Back!"

"American History for Texans, too!"

"Education, Not Indoctrination"

"Question Authority -- Especially When They Don't Know What They're talking About!"

 

 

WHO'S INVITED: Religious and non-religious secularists who want fairness and accuracy in our public school curriculum!

 

WHAT: Mass rally on the steps of the Texas Capitol, 201 E. 14th St., Austin, TX.

 

WHEN: Sunday, May 16, 2010 beginning at 11:00 AM.

 

MORE INFO: American Atheists (

http://www.atheists.org

) or

Kathleen Johnson (Vice President, AA)

kjohnson@atheists.org

Joe Zamecki, (Texas State Director, AA)

jzamecki@atheists.org

[iNow]

I'd like to thank Jackson33 for indirectly reminding me about this.

 

 

 

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/468673-stop-religious-extremists-from-hijacking-american-education

A few theocratic members of the Texas State Board of Education are having a national impact. They are using tax dollars to mislead children with religious propaganda, falsely asserting a religious basis to America's founding structure, and removing, of all people, Thomas Jefferson from a list of influential thinkers. Texas textbooks have a national influence while federal science and history standards have been neglected.

 

Let's make sure our community's voice is heard!

Here are four things you can do

right now to make a difference.

 

If you live in Texas:

Join a protest on the steps of the state capitol in Austin on Sunday, May 16 at 11:00 AM to defend science, reason, and high academic standards.

Click here

for more details from Secular Coalition for America member organization American Atheists, the organizers of this event.

 

If you don't live in Texas:

Forward this email to friends, colleagues, acquaintances, or online social network connections you have who do live in Texas, and tell them that they need to stand up for their state's students.

 

No matter where you live:

Click here

to write your Member of Congress now. Click here to write your Member of Congress now. Tell them that if they support national education standards and incentives for math and English, they should support standards that are just as strong for science and history, regardless of pressure from religious extremists.

 

Educate yourself and others about this issue:

Click here

to read the Secular Coalition for America's factsheet on national education standards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The above takes on even more importance considering what the board did just this week:

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

After three days of turbulent meetings, the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks, stressing the superiority of American capitalism, questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government and presenting Republican political philosophies in a more positive light.

 

<...>

 

In recent years, board members have been locked in an ideological battle between a bloc of conservatives who question Darwin’s theory of evolution and believe the Founding Fathers were guided by Christian principles, and a handful of Democrats and moderate Republicans who have fought to preserve the teaching of Darwinism and the separation of church and state.

 

Since January, Republicans on the board have passed more than 100 amendments to the 120-page curriculum standards affecting history, sociology and economics courses from elementary to high school.

 

<...>

 

Battles over what to put in science and history books have taken place for years in the 20 states where state boards must adopt textbooks, most notably in California and Texas. But rarely in recent history has a group of conservative board members left such a mark on a social studies curriculum.

 

<...>

 

The curriculum standards will now be published in a state register, opening them up for 30 days of public comment. A final vote will be taken in May, but given the Republican dominance of the board, it is unlikely that many changes will be made.

 

 

Over 100 amendments to a 120 page curriculum just in the past 4 months. Come on, guys... really?

[JohnB]

Over 100 amendments to a 120 page curriculum just in the past 4 months. Come on, guys... really?

Meh, they're not even trying. I used to sell Life Insurance but got out when the Oz Federal Govt passed 200+ changes that totalled over 2,500 pages of Legislation, Rulings and Explanatory Notes in 87 days of sitting. (And if I didn't know all of it, I could be fined)

 

One question though,

But rarely in recent history has a group of conservative board members left such a mark on a social studies curriculum.

 

So how often have "progressives" done it?

 

Seriously though, you guys do indeed have a problem.

[ParanoiA]

I don't believe this would be a problem if you had real school choice. Currently, the state funds the school network and assigns kids to buildings based on geography. If kids don't go to those buildings, the system still gets paid. If parents want to send their kids to private school buildings, the state still gets paid full price.

 

But when the funds follow the kid - ya' know, the tax money mom and dad lost in this transaction - then suddenly these state run buildings have to respond to their customers. When parents get that kind of choice, these bureaucratic boards of waste will have to bend and flex or lose out altogether - or I guess, just accept a smaller customer base.

 

And then parents don't have to worry as much about centralized control freaks forcing their views on education onto everyone else. I would think this Texas problem would be more of a non-issue.

 

Our country's psychology seems to be bent on fighting battles over centralized control preferences rather than avoiding battles by de-centralizing and allowing individual choice and the lack of centralized control. Instead of fighting about what we're going to force each other to do, we should be simply choosing what we prefer for ourselves, individually. Then everyone gets their preference.

 

Why shouldn't these Texas conservatives learn what they want, and Texas liberals learn what they want? Why must we force one or the other?

[iNow]

Why shouldn't these Texas conservatives learn what they want, and Texas liberals learn what they want? Why must we force one or the other?

Because one is accurate and the other is not.

 

 

While we're at it, we should let kids learn that 2+2 = pie. Great idea.

[swansont]

While we're at it, we should let kids learn that 2+2 = pie. Great idea.

 

Let them decide what's right. Teach the controversy!

[ParanoiA]

Because one is accurate and the other is not.

 

 

While we're at it, we should let kids learn that 2+2 = pie. Great idea.

 

Yep that's exactly right. Accuracy is not objective, but yet another subjective, personal interpretation of reality. But not to the control freaks, of course.

 

 

Interesting you should mention math:

 

Mathematics Literacy

 

The United States ranks 25th of 30 OECD countries in mathematics literacy, and the average score of 474 fell well below the OECD average of 498. Scores have not measurably changed since 2003, when the United States ranked 24th of 29 countries (OECD 2007b).

 

Over one quarter (28.1 percent) of American fifteen-year-olds performed below the baseline level of mathematics proficiency at which students begin to demonstrate the kind of skills that enable them to use mathematics actively in daily life (OECD 2007b).

 

Charter schools continue to outperform government schools. That's why the education cartel rarely approves them, and generally turns most of them down. Choice scares the hell out of lazy bureaucratic statists that are accustomed to getting their funds, including increases, without any results to show for it.

 

Read pretty much anything about the Kansas City school district and the 2 billion dollar dump they got a few years ago and how we got nothing but further declining scores and drop out rates to show for it.

 

Our education system is a joke. It's a government screw job.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

 

To give you an idea of how competitive American schools are and how U.S. students performed compared with their European counterparts, we gave parts of an international test to some high school students in Belgium and in New Jersey.

 

Belgian kids cleaned the American kids' clocks, and called them "stupid."

 

We didn't pick smart kids to test in Europe and dumb kids in the United States. The American students attend an above-average school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's kids have test scores that are above average for America.

 

American schools don't teach as well as schools in other countries because they are government monopolies, and monopolies don't have much incentive to compete. In Belgium, by contrast, the money is attached to the kids -- it's a kind of voucher system. Government funds education -- at many different kinds of schools -- but if a school can't attract students, it goes out of business.

 

Belgian school principal Kaat Vandensavel told us she works hard to impress parents.

 

She told us, "If we don't offer them what they want for their child, they won't come to our school." She constantly improves the teaching, saying, "You can't afford 10 teachers out of 160 that don't do their work, because the clients will know, and won't come to you again."

 

"That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S."

 

The money should follow the student, not the assigned government building.

 

Giving parents a choice is the only respectful compliment to the notion that we each know what's better for our children, on the whole, than the statist bureaucrats screwing them out of their education and the parents out of their money.

 

Oh, and here's a chart on how to fire an incompetent teacher in the american government school system, for your comedic enjoyment.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Let them decide what's right. Teach the controversy!

 

Instead of a group of grown idiots with the free time to attend PTA deciding what my son or daughter should learn, how about I decide that? I get to decide what they eat, drink, wear, their healthcare, life or death decisions next to hospital bed - but what they learn is just too much parental control? Give me a break...logic please, everyone.

[jackson33]

I'd like to thank Jackson33 for indirectly reminding me about this. [/Quote]

 

iNow, in context: You were arguing elsewhere, five boys by wearing "red, white and blue" on 'cinco de mayo' was intended to be confrontational, an intentional provocative act. By promoting the identical and most certainly a louder voice (organized/publicized) you were arguing against the same things, you were currently practicing actions for (an atheist program on Sunday). I can't imagine a more hypocritical scenario and the point I was making.

 

HOWEVER, my comments then and remain true today, is that both sides of any demonstration have those rights, if done in a legal manner. Those boy's were vindicated and their is nothing wrong with an "Atheist Demonstration" on the Austin Court House Steps assumed properly permitted or and another of my points, if I had led a COUNTER protest. I'll be looking forward to your editorial on the outcome of the demonstration....

 

A few theocratic members of the Texas State Board of Education are having a national impact. They are using tax dollars to mislead children with religious propaganda, falsely asserting a religious basis to America's founding structure, and removing, of all people, Thomas Jefferson from a list of influential thinkers. Texas textbooks have a national influence while federal science and history standards have been neglected. [/Quote]

 

From your link; This is a totally misleading summery of these people, their action and motivation. Yes, it would seem "a few" are Conservative or one or two may understand the religious foundation, this country was formed under, but there are two things to consider;

 

No other School district other than those in TEXAS, will have to purchase the same text book and teachers will, as they have for years, determine the meanings of comment with in any text book.

 

Back to the "religious basis to America's founding structure", is subjective to any persons understanding and personal beliefs. Most I would suggest, have NO idea just how important Religion was to ALL PEOPLE, in those days or to the influence that led to the free practice of ANY Religion.

 

Thomas Jefferson, was removed as A (one) leader of the pre-war 'Revolution Movement' (leading up to), but not to his contributions to ANYTHING else. I do not like the motivation, behind this change 'instituting the wall between State and Church' (I believe it to be the purpose or basic principle which allowed all religions to be practiced), but do agree their were many others that led the way to the actual revolution.

 

I'll add, NO US TAX DOLLARS are being used to purchase any text books, for any district...In fact the majority of money used (State/County/City/School taxes) come from people that don't currently even use Public Education.

 

Battles over what to put in science and history books have taken place for years in the 20 states where state boards must adopt textbooks, most notably in California and Texas. But rarely in recent history has a group of conservative board members left such a mark on a social studies curriculum. [/Quote]

 

From your promotional material; They are trying to separate issues of social conscience from history or science itself. Social evolution has developed in the US or any other Nation, in accordance to their concepts of what society to THEM should be, their laws or the enforcement of those laws. As John alluded to and others, these changes have incrementally been inserted into text and the minds of the educators for at least 130 years, whether through the progressive movements or more realistic socialistic movements.

 

I have no vested interest in what happens, in or to the US in the future. It's long been my belief that the generations that will live in that perceived time, should set the tone for what they feel should be, just as I have during my time. We and for that matter the industrialized World of today have REACHED the point of no return, where 'social justice' and the 'individual' have collided. As a Nation, built on certain principles, that without those principles enforced, what will be in the not too distant future, will not resemble what in my lifetime and in my opinion, has been the greatest period for human individual achievement in history.

[The Bear's Key]

Why shouldn't these Texas conservatives learn what they want, and Texas liberals learn what they want?

Yeah, because *reasonable* standards never improved anything in the world by leaps and bounds. So perhaps I'll make you a giant list of things we'd not have if not for intelligent standards, first on that list being our ability to communicate on the internet so effectively as we're doing now.

 

You see, it's really not ideological as you might think. The struggle is mostly between people wanting to teach neutral/accurate material for basic overall society function vs. those who'd like to insert political/religious non-facts.

 

 

Accuracy is not objective, but yet another subjective, personal interpretation of reality. But not to the control freaks, of course.

Is that accurate?

 

Of course why stop there? Let's not have one Constitution, but multiple variations of them everywhere so whatever anyone sees as good enough for them is a wee-regional founding document. And the Constitution would also be subjective, a personal interpretation of rights, but not to those control freaks who rather it mean one standard thing for everyone.

 

 

Charter schools continue to outperform government schools.

Because parents with money send kids there? Or are the charter schools luxuriously enormous to fit all the kids come rushing in from all the surrounding public and desperately lacking educational places?

 

And how would the low-income or three-jobs parent get the kid to the distant charter school -- do those places send out a bus for distant students?

 

 

Choice scares the hell out of lazy bureaucratic statists

Really, let's see the data on that fear -- and I'll show you data on how public education scares the hell out of power-seekers in religion who can't indoctrinate kids there.

 

If you were stating an original thought it'd be different, however I've encountered nearly identical propaganda repeatedly.

 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

"That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S."

There's people from Europe here among our membership.

 

Let's see how their experience relates to what Caroline Hoxby said in the quote above, comparing the nuances of both our systems as well. There's always more to the whole picture.

 

 

 

Instead of a group of grown idiots with the free time to attend PTA deciding what my son or daughter should learn, how about I decide that? I get to decide what they eat, drink, wear, their healthcare, life or death decisions next to hospital bed - but what they learn is just too much parental control? Give me a break...logic please, everyone.

Oh really, so PTA decides what the children learn?

 

Right.

 

That's why having schools teach material chosen by local political whim is a bad idea: misinformation to the extreme. Yes, logic please.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

As for public schools, overall government, business, whatever is presented as "best" - there's a smart way to do things and a dumb way. Listening to politics instead of real examination usually helps feed the dumb way.

Edited May 15, 2010 by The Bear's Key
Consecutive posts merged.

[iNow]

By promoting the identical and most certainly a louder voice (organized/publicized) you were arguing against the same things, you were currently practicing actions for (an atheist program on Sunday). I can't imagine a more hypocritical scenario and the point I was making.

There's an atheist program being held on Sunday? Where? I haven't heard of any atheist protests or programs scheduled tomorrow.

[jackson33]

iNow; Your links and on your post....

 

http://www.atheists.org/events/Texas_Rally

 

MORE INFO: American Atheists (http://www.atheists.org) or

Kathleen Johnson (Vice President, AA) kjohnson@atheists.org

Joe Zamecki, (Texas State Director, AA) jzamecki@atheists.org

 

WHO'S INVITED: Religious and non-religious secularists who want fairness and accuracy in our public school curriculum!

 

JOIN US ON THE STEPS OF THE TEXAS CAPITOL IN AUSTIN.[/Quote]

 

(Noun: secularist sek-yu-lu-rist

 

An advocate of secularism; someone who believes that religion should be excluded from government and education)

 

Additionally, this which I've already covered....

 

A few theocratic members of the Texas State Board of Education are having a national impact. They are using tax dollars to mislead children with religious propaganda, falsely asserting a religious basis to America's founding structure, and removing, of all people, Thomas Jefferson from a list of influential thinkers. Texas textbooks have a national influence while federal science and history standards have been neglected. [/Quote]

 

If you really believe their/your intentions/meaning are 'fairness and accuracy' according to other than the atheist viewpoint, or that being held on Sunday Morning has no implied meaning, I can offer you no further arguments...

[ParanoiA]

Yeah, because *reasonable* standards never improved anything in the world by leaps and bounds. So perhaps I'll make you a giant list of things we'd not have if not for intelligent standards, first on that list being our ability to communicate on the internet so effectively as we're doing now.

 

You mean like the Internet Engineering Task Force? A private membership.

 

Or do you mean like the World Wide Web Consortium? Another private sector membership.

 

I'm sorry, I can't find the centralized government coersive power that has forced these standards on to all of us - like a school board. All I can find is free people, freely organizing and promoting standards that other free people are impressed with and follow. Probably because there isn't a public controversial divide of computer geeks, each with legitimate concerns erroneously dismissed by their opponents.

 

Government schools on the other hand, leave no such freedom up to anyone. Coersion. That's it.

 

My problem isn't with stardards, my problem is this antiquated notion that personal choice should be centralized, standardized and peer reviewed. I really don't give a shit if my education preferences don't pass someone's scrutiny, and I don't find any authority or hubris to manage theirs - which I do, absolutely, find appaling offensive and stupid by the way.

 

I mean seriously...a capitalist republic that utterly fails to teach capitalism and the concept of the republic any deeper than glossary definitions? All High School graduates should be absolute experts in economics, the constitution and the responsibility inherent in a self-governed republic. Most kids don't even know the difference between republic and democracy, and foolishly consider ourselves a democracy.

 

Yet, I don't bitch and cry to the school board to force everyone to learn it.

 

Of course why stop there? Let's not have one Constitution, but multiple variations of them everywhere so whatever anyone sees as good enough for them is a wee-regional founding document. And the Constitution would also be subjective, a personal interpretation of rights, but not to those control freaks who rather it mean one standard thing for everyone.

 

Why stop there? Because that defies the meaning and purpose of the constitution. And I'm not surprised you asked and completely failed to notice that personal choice is also part of the meaning and purpose of the constitution. Bravo!

 

Because parents with money send kids there? Or are the charter schools luxuriously enormous to fit all the kids come rushing in from all the surrounding public and desperately lacking educational places?

 

Parents with money...hmm, you do realize that charter schools are funded by the state right? They're as "free" as the government schools.

 

You mean like Harlem Success Academy? Built on the impoverished side of Manhattan, thousands apply every year, all over New York City, and only a few hundred get in. It's literally considered a lottery to get in. Not many rich kiddos going here...

 

I wonder how they perform...

 

 

For the end of the 2008–2009 school year, 95% of third-graders passed state English exams, whereas in nearby public schools only 56% of students passed, although a sixth of the public school students are non-English-speaking on arrival and percentage-wise a seventh more than HSA's are eligible for free school lunches,[11] the latter indicating poverty or near-poverty, but whether those disparities are enough to explain the difference in scores is not stated.

 

In statewide tests of third-graders in 2009 on combined subjects, Harlem Success Academy ranked 32nd out of almost 3500 schools. No student tested beneath basic standards and nearly half the students achieved the highest score (4 on a scale of 1–4).[21] In English alone, no pupil was below standard and nearly a quarter received the top score.[22] In math, no student was substandard and seven in ten got the top score, no school in the state doing better,[23] Harlem Success tying for no. 1. Harlem Success outdid its surrounding district in English by almost 25 percentage points.

 

One organization gives HSA its highest rating and says a small sample of parents do, too.[24]

 

Hmm...surely they must spend bunches of money right? Oops...try again.

 

Here's some more reading on charter schools, since you seem to have fallen for the common mythology of charter schools and propaganda we get from the education cartel here in america.

 

Really, let's see the data on that fear -- and I'll show you data on how public education scares the hell out of power-seekers in religion who can't indoctrinate kids there.

 

No need, I accept both. And much more. That's why we should have choice. You indoctrinate your kids with your trash, and I'll indoctrinate mine with my trash. We all do this. Education preference is just but one of thousands of ways we use power over our children to indoctrinate them with our value system and ethics.

 

So what's the problem? Oh yeah...cuz they don't agree with your value system, that's right. Sorry, it's not any more compelling than when conservatives make that argument about gay marriage and god in the pledge.

 

F*ck your value system. It sucks, in my opinion. In fact, most everyone's values are twisted up messes of excuses and lame exceptions that only impress themselves - although it's entertaining to watch. I'm not following any of them. And I'm not passing them down to my kids either.

 

There's people from Europe here among our membership.

 

Let's see how their experience relates to what Caroline Hoxby said in the quote above' date=' comparing the nuances of both our systems as well. There's always more to the whole picture. [/quote']

 

Yes, that will be interesting. Money following the kids over money following the buildings. Parental choice over subordinate assignment.

 

Oh really' date=' so PTA decides what the children learn?

 

Right.

 

That's why having schools teach material chosen by local political whim is a bad idea: misinformation to the extreme. Yes, logic please.[/quote']

 

Yes, admittedly I have no experience in participating in the coersion game. I prefer the choice game. I have no desire to force my views on you, despite the offense your views contain.

 

As for public schools, overall government, business, whatever is presented as "best" - there's a smart way to do things and a dumb way. Listening to politics instead of real examination usually helps feed the dumb way.

 

Absolutely. Listening to the politics pimped by the teacher's union and government bureaucrats against Charter Schools is the dumb way. After real examination, I expect you'll follow that up with action, right?

 

Here's a real gem of examination of the current dumb way:

 

Jay Greene, author of "Education Myths," points out that "If money were the solution, the problem would already be solved ... We've doubled per pupil spending, adjusting for inflation, over the last 30 years, and yet schools aren't better."

 

He's absolutely right. National graduation rates and achievement scores are flat, while spending on education has increased more than 100 percent since 1971. More money hasn't helped American kids.

 

Ooh yeah, go government schools!

Edited May 15, 2010 by ParanoiA