Jesus: faith vs works

[Iggy]

When you quote without including that sentence, it sounds as though Jesus is just saying that slavery and obedience is good. When you add the preceding sentence, you can see that Jesus is saying that you should be like a good slave. He's saying you should be prepared as a slave would be.

 

Without context, the meaning is very different.

 

I see. I would just again say that you present "slavery and obedience is good" and "you should be like a good slave" as if they are mutually exclusive. They are not and I believe the passage does both.

 

I see no reason to exacerbate any differences in interpretation in this thread or another.

[ponderer]

 

Struggled for years to find the kernel of Jesus.

 

I finally found it in one reference.

 

Men lived by the letter of the law, the Ten Commandments. Jesus brought the message that men must feel and live by the spirit of the law.

 

Failure to heed Jesus led to the destruction of Jerusalem,and the disporia, not long after the death of Jesus. If people had listened to him, the Jews would have been more peaceful, and this would not have happened. He would have been the saviour of israel.

 

Israel was an occupied state. Many Jews hated the Romans, rebelling like the current Palestinians. The Romans responded brutally with scourgings and crucifictions. The radical Jews were not backing down. It was getting ugly. Anyone with half a brain could see that the Romans could do what they wanted with Israel. Jesus was trying to settle everyone down before they faced the inevitable outcome, when Rome finally lost patience.

Edited May 14, 2010 by ponderer

[pioneer]

Faith versus works can be compared via innovation versus education. With education, one can learn about the world around us. One can be justified, in a social sense, by simply repeating the knowledge we have learned. If you were taught X and repeat X, you are justified by these works of education, even if you don't fully understand. Just saying it is sufficient. At the very least, one was paying attention.

 

Once one obtains this educational background, for many, it becomes time to think up your own ideas. New ideas are not always validated via the old laws of education. In the time of vacuum tubes, integrated circuits would break the laws of temporal certainty. This faith in one's own perspective can become blaspheme, especially to those who know the words of education but not all its extended implications.

 

The new idea may not be of the works of education (law), since it departs from the bottom line works. It comes to one through faith in their education combined with their ability to think and reason. Often the blaspheme of today becomes the education of tomorrow.

 

If we only lived by the works of temporal knowledge (law), we would be stuck in time, since most of the new would break the laws of the old. The works of the computer programmer are different today that ten years ago. What was justified then, will not work today, unless we could have banned all innovation at that time so the laws of then were not broken.

 

The future thinkers were called the children of the promise; children of god, since they like god are part of continuous creation. Jesus said, I will leave behind a comforter, a spirit who will guide you to all truth (future). The future may not be justified by the works of todays law. One will get grief. One needs faith and inner comfort to overcomes the pitfalls of the works of today's law,

[lucaspa]

Did Jesus teach faith only salvation(like Paul), or did He teach that works are necessary? I tend to think the latter, despite much opposition by most Christian sects. In my defense, it's one of the major themes of Matthew.

 

I think this is not a forum that is most appropriate for Science Forums. You are not going to get a detailed theological discussion here. I suggest www.christianforums.com or www.beliefnet.com.

 

I would say that there is an inherent difficulty in basing any theological argument solely on Matthew. Matthew is specifically addressed to the Jews. The birth narrative, for instance, is tailored to make Jesus seem as much like Moses as possible, to make Jesus more palatable to the Jews as Messiah. I would say that it is very possible that Matthew deliberately made works part of salvation because Judaism placed such an emphasis on "works" in the form of the Laws. Thus, Matthew again would be making Christianity more palatable to the Jews than Paul's theology (which came before the gospel of Matthew was written).

[ydoaPs]

I think this is not a forum that is most appropriate for Science Forums. You are not going to get a detailed theological discussion here. I suggest www.christianforums.com or www.beliefnet.com.

This is not a theological question, but rather a historical one.

 

I would say that there is an inherent difficulty in basing any theological argument solely on Matthew.

It's not solely based on Matthew, but even if it were, that shouldn't matter. Is there any reason to doubt the validity of the words ascribed to Jesus in Matthew?

 

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."-Luke 3:9

 

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."-Luke 6:46-49

 

"He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]: And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down."-Luke 13:6

 

 

"And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."-Revelation 2:23

 

"Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double."-Revelation 18:6

 

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."-Revelation 20:12-13

 

Matthew is specifically addressed to the Jews.

As was all of Jesus's teaching. Christianity started as an offshoot of Judaism. Surely to properly understand the original Christianity one must place it in its proper context.

 

Thus, Matthew again would be making Christianity more palatable to the Jews than Paul's theology (which came before the gospel of Matthew was written).

I don't take Paul to be very accurate at representing the teachings of Jesus. He doesn't even seem to know what they are. Nor does he quote Jesus. On this issue of works, Paul even disagrees with Peter(the Rock upon which the Church was to be built) who quotes Jesus in the debate. Paul describes one such confrontation, but does not say who won the argument that day.

 

For the confrontation Paul described see Galations 2:11-17. However, I'll type out some passages from texts you probably don't have to give you a fuller sense of their relationship.

 

"For some among the gentiles have rejected my lawful preaching and have preferred a lawless and absurd doctrine of the man who is my enemy. And indeed some have attempted, while I am still alive, to distort my word by interpretations on many sorts, as if I taught the dissolution of the Law...But that may God forbid! For to do such a thing means to act contrary to the Law of God which was made to Moses and was confirmed by our Lord in its everlating continuance. For He said, 'The heavens and earth will pass away, but not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Law.'"-Letter of Peter to James 2:3-5

 

"And if our Jesus appeared to you and became known in a vision and met you as angry and an enemy, yet he has spoken only through visions and dreams or through external revelations. But can anyone be made competent to teach through a vision? And if your opinion is that that is possible, why then did our teacher spend a whole year with us who were awake? How can we believe you even if he has appeared to you?...But if you were visited by him for the space of an hour and were instructed by him and thereby have become an apostle, then proclaim his words, expound what he has taught, be a friend to his apostles, and do not contend with me, whoa m his confidant; for you have in hostility withstood me, who am a firm rock, the foundation stone of the Church."-Peter(Clementine Homilies 17:19)