Pain

[fafalone]

One time i accidently punctured my arm with a small spear, never even felt it until a few days later when the tetnus kicked in :/

[Glider]

Tetanus?...Ow!...bummer!

 

Originally posted by blike

 

Very interesting because my brother was ALWAYS the same way as a child. I can remember one specific instance where he fell off his bicycle and gashed open his arm. He got up, picked up his bike and started to ride again. Apparently he didn't realize how bad the wound was. As soon as I told him (and he noticed the blood dripping everywhere) he burst into tears and fell on the ground holding his arm in a protective position.

 

That's very interesting. It fits with what Skye said about being bitten by a dog too:

 

Looking down and seeing a hole, cuts, bruising made my perception change, not only did it hurt more, it hurt differently.

 

In light of this, would it be fair to say that emotion must be a significant component of pain? In other words, that it is not so much the intensity of the stimulus (or the degree of tissue damage), which determines the pain experience, but our emotional response to it?

[Grimbeard]

A thought (well, half of one at least):

 

One thing that occurs to me regarding the "it doesn't hurt until I notice it" issue, for children in particular, is that when they "hurt themselves" (for want of a better phrase), for example when falling off a swing, they will seek for cues suggesting how to react.

 

If no-one's watching they may just get back on the swing and carry on; if a friend's there they may laugh it off; if mummy's there they may cry (I strongly suspect that adults do something similar ). The response to the stimulus certainly appears to be dependent on social and emotional context.

 

This is nowhere near an explanation of course - kids don't suddenly cease to feel pain when mummy leaves the room (I would guess, anyway) - but it may go some way to explaining the development of a perception of "pain" as a socially-mediated response.

 

Alternatively, the kid in the above example may actually feel "pain" in all 3 of the situations, but their reaction to that "pain" is different (i.e. socially-mediated).

 

I'm losing it - but then I said it was only half a thought! It's way too early for me to be thinking...need glucose and caffeine

[Glider]

That's valid. It's a part of the acquision of socially learned traits I mentioned earlier, in the context of cultural differences. Children 'learn' how to respond to pain from their parents and peers. Their parents and peers will have learned the 'appropriate' responses from social ideals concerning (e.g.) gender role behaviours and so-on.

 

If we accept that emotion is a significant component of pain. Then the socially acquired 'traits' determining the 'appropriate' emotional responses to a painful event, must also (partly at least) determine the ultimate experience of pain.

 

This goes some way to explaining the observed (between) individual differences in the perception of pain related to sex, ethnicity and cultural affiliation.

[YoungStrife]

Some may argue this belongs to pseudoscience but sine I saw the thai boy in a trance and a handlebar for a bike go through his cheek without reactive at all, I believe it.

 

We all may agree that phsycokinesis is a hoax, but there is one form of it called mind over self that basically states that those with the ability can control neerly all their unconscious bodily functions.

 

Through training of something called the parasympathetic nervous system, we can train our body and mind to lessen the effect of pain or even eliminate it completely.

 

Pain was created so that we would not hurt ourselves consciously, or accidently hurt ourselves more if injured. So when we are in pain...we are basically more careful.

 

I am one example of one who has trained the parasympathetic nervous system to lessen the effect of pain. In fact, my friends now call me pain-pill-popper because of this trained function.

 

So in conclusion: Pain does not have to exist if you don't want it to...all it takes is a lot of pain and a little training.

[Glider]

Originally posted by YoungStrife

Some may argue this belongs to pseudoscience but sine I saw the thai boy in a trance and a handlebar for a bike go through his cheek without reactive at all, I believe it.

Must be murder trying to whistle.

 

We all may agree that phsycokinesis is a hoax, but there is one form of it called mind over self that basically states that those with the ability can control neerly all their unconscious bodily functions.

This is not strictly psychokinesis (which refers to controlling or moving objects remotely through the power of the mind), this is more biofeedback, by which most people can exert a modicum of control over certain aspects of autonomic function (e.g. heart-rate).

 

Through training of something called the parasympathetic nervous system, we can train our body and mind to lessen the effect of pain or even eliminate it completely.

I can't see how, as the ANS doesn't mediate pain, it is responsible for functions such as heart-rate, vasodilation/constriction, pupillary response, peristalsis; yer basic homeostatic functions and so-on. The two divisions of the ANS (sympathetic and parasympathetic) exist in a sort of tonic balance. Increased activity in the sympathetic division results in elevated heart-rate, vasocostriction, pupillary contriction etc., whilst activity in the parasympathetic dividion results in the opposite (reduced heart-rate, vaso and pupillary dilation etc.). Noxious stimuli, on the other hand are detected, transduced and transmitted by afferent fibres of the peripheral nervous system (PNS) to the central nervous system (CNS) for processing. The ANS don't enter into it in any significant way.

 

Pain was created so that we would not hurt ourselves consciously, or accidently hurt ourselves more if injured. So when we are in pain...we are basically more careful.

It's true to say that the ability to detect and respond quickly to noxious (potentially harmful) stimuli evolved to protect us from physical damage, and in the presence of damage, to encourage us to favour the damaged area in order to promote healing. However, pain itself is the subjective psychological experience associated with activity in that system.

 

I am one example of one who has trained the parasympathetic nervous system to lessen the effect of pain. In fact, my friends now call me pain-pill-popper because of this trained function.

cool! though I can't quite see the link between self-training in pain control and pill popping.

 

So in conclusion: Pain does not have to exist if you don't want it to...all it takes is a lot of pain and a little training.

...er...:scratch:

[YoungStrife]

Dear glider;

 

I found out about the PNS through research of psychokinesis and it's supposed catagories. This was one of them and I do agree it is a "biofeedback" as well...if i do know what it means.

 

If I find the video of the thai boy I'll send it to you, but in the video he meditated 30 minutes, was then placed on a seat of thorns, got a large piercing through his cheek, then had a handlebar shoved through. He was alive since after he was 'sown up' he got out of the trance and looked like he had a hangover.

 

I know the PNS and SNS control our unconscious bodily functions. One of which is pain. By reducing the amount of pain and reacting to it differently as well, one feels less pain.

 

Some kids in our school on the football and wrestling teams take pain pills, and thats where I got the name, because I reacted the same way those who take pain pills do.

 

And Finally, by feeling more pain, you can train it more, and eventually reach my degree, or maybe even that of the thai boy.

[Glider]

Originally posted by YoungStrife

Dear glider;

 

I found out about the PNS through research of psychokinesis and it's supposed catagories. This was one of them and I do agree it is a "biofeedback" as well...if i do know what it means.

Do you mean the ANS (Autonomic Nervous System)? PNS stands for 'Peripheral Nervous System' (as opposed to Central Nervous System, or 'CNS'). In any event, 'psychokinesis' still refers to the supposed ability to move objects by mental effort alone.

 

If I find the video of the thai boy I'll send it to you, but in the video he meditated 30 minutes, was then placed on a seat of thorns, got a large piercing through his cheek, then had a handlebar shoved through. He was alive since after he was 'sown up' he got out of the trance and looked like he had a hangover.

It's ok, I've seen the ceremonies in which people pass long spikes through their cheeks.

 

I know the PNS and SNS control our unconscious bodily functions. One of which is pain.

The ANS controls our non-volitional bodily functions. The sympathetic and parasympathetic divisions of the ANS work in tonic opposition to maintain homeostasis. Neither mediates pain, nor is pain a bodily function. The PNS (peripheral nervous system) refers to all afferent (sensory) and efferent (motor) pathways outside of the brain and spinal cord.

 

By reducing the amount of pain and reacting to it differently as well, one feels less pain.

By reducing the amount of pain, one feels less pain? I can't really argue with that, now can I?

 

Some kids in our school on the football and wrestling teams take pain pills, and thats where I got the name, because I reacted the same way those who take pain pills do.

I don't know what a 'pain pill' is.

 

And Finally, by feeling more pain, you can train it more, and eventually reach my degree, or maybe even that of the thai boy.

If you mean "through more frequent exposure to pain we may begin to control our responses to it" I would agree, up to a point. However, the Thai child (and those others who pass things through their cheeks) apparently felt no pain. The absence of pain in the presence of trauma that one may resonably expect to be painful (like the Indian hook swinging ceremony) is a very different thing from controlling one's responses to pain.

[YoungStrife]

A pain pill is basically a perscribed medication given to handle pain in the form ofeither a pill or an injection. Ex. Morpheine.

 

I am no genius to the workings of the brain, but this is the information I have found, and I apologise if it is wrong, or slightly innacturate.

 

By redducing the amount of pain I meant to have lower amounts of pain nerves fire off when one is hurt...it's ok, I'm a messy thinker.

 

If you suggest that the thai boy felt no pain at all, I would have to disagree. I might agree that he willingly shut down a part of his conscious brain, the part that makes us react to pain. I haven't mastered pain to a large enough extent to see whether this is true or not but hopefully I may get back to you on that.

[Glider]

Originally posted by YoungStrife

A pain pill is basically a perscribed medication given to handle pain in the form ofeither a pill or an injection. Ex. Morpheine.

Ok, controlled analgesics then. You say kids take these before playing football?

 

I am no genius to the workings of the brain, but this is the information I have found, and I apologise if it is wrong, or slightly innacturate.

No apology required. Slightly inaccurate is no problem...wildly inaccurate just makes it a lot harder for you to make your point.

 

By redducing the amount of pain I meant to have lower amounts of pain nerves fire off when one is hurt...it's ok, I'm a messy thinker.

Afferent (sensory) nerves will fire whenever they are exposed to their stimulus. We have no control over this at all (unless you include topical and local anaesthetics).

 

If you suggest that the thai boy felt no pain at all, I would have to disagree.

Your description of the event involves nothing to indicate the boy was suffering; no screaming or writhing or attempts to escape. Given that pain is entirely subjective, and can only be measured in another by observation of behaviours, on what do you base the assumption that he felt pain?

 

I might agree that he willingly shut down a part of his conscious brain, the part that makes us react to pain.

The problem here is that there isn't any one part of the brain that 'makes us respond to pain', so which bit of his 'conscious brain' would this boy have 'shut down'? Pain is a function of circuitry. The basic elements of the circuit have been isolated and are known collectively as the pain matrix. This involves the lateral (sensory-discriminative) system, including the lateral thalamus and somatosensory cortices I & II, and the medial (affective-motivational) pain system involving the medial thalamus, the anterior cingulate gyrus, prefrontal and frontal cortex, the insula and the periaqueductal grey area (PAG).

 

I haven't mastered pain to a large enough extent to see whether this is true or not but hopefully I may get back to you on that.

I look forward to it.

[YoungStrife]

I won't get into the workings of the brain itself since I am no neurologist, and know little of its workings.

 

Embarking on a new experiment I tested my motor/mental skills while exposed to different amounts of pain. (puzzles, math problems, walking, running, patting my head and rubbing my stomach at once, etc.) and I found that there is no activity that I can perform at the same speed, or efficiency as I did when I was not exposed to pain. This was true in all cases even though I managed to reach the degree of not even knowing I was in pain once I attempted the motor skill.

 

How could this be possible? Is it simply a product of extreme concentration? And is there any part of the brain that pain does not effect involving motor/mental skills?

 

On a different note, you say that since pain is a subjective thing, then we may not feel pain AT ALL if we want to? And what paert of the brain initially analyzes pain (is it the limbic system)?

[Glider]

Originally posted by YoungStrife

I won't get into the workings of the brain itself since I am no neurologist, and know little of its workings.

If you really want to know about pain, you might need to.

Embarking on a new experiment I tested my motor/mental skills while exposed to different amounts of pain. (puzzles, math problems, walking, running, patting my head and rubbing my stomach at once, etc.) and I found that there is no activity that I can perform at the same speed, or efficiency as I did when I was not exposed to pain. This was true in all cases even though I managed to reach the degree of not even knowing I was in pain once I attempted the motor skill.

 

How could this be possible? Is it simply a product of extreme concentration? And is there any part of the brain that pain does not effect involving motor/mental skills?

This might have something to do with the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC). The anterior ACC is associated with emotional (affective) processing and the posterior ACC is associated with cognitive processing. Reciprocal suppression of the cognitive subdivision during intense emotional states has been observed. Individuals with severe depression and normal subjects anticipating pain and experiencing experimentally induced emotion all showed deactivation of the cognitive subdivision (Bush et al., 2000). People in pain are known to show impairment in their cognitive abilities. As this supression effect is reciprocal, there is no reason to suppose that certain qualities or quantities of activity in the cognitive subdivision could not suppress activity in the affective subdivision, resulting in the supression of pain. Indeed, it might be a part of the central pain control mechanism.

 

It is probably better to think of the brain as a 'system' as opposed to a collection of discrete parts. Rather than there being parts which work this, and other parts which work that, any effect of brain function (walking, picking up a pencil, talking etc., etc.) is the result of the function of a system; a circuit if you like, which involves many different areas each exerting a different influence (addative/subtractive/modulatory) to produce the end result.

 

Having said all that, you might want to reconsider the wisdom of inflicting pain on yourself to see if you can still do maths. Most of your observations have already been shown in controlled experiments and reported in the literature. I would suggest that reading up on the subject is likely to be significantly less hazardous.

On a different note, you say that since pain is a subjective thing, then we may not feel pain AT ALL if we want to?

That appears to be a possibility, though it is a long way from being realized.

And what paert of the brain initially analyzes pain (is it the limbic system)?

Tricky question. If you ask "which part of the CNS first processes pain (nociceptive signals)" then that would probably be the dorsal horn of the spinal cord. There is evidence that the a degree of (low level) primary processing occurs in the laminae of the substantia gelatinosa in the dorsal horn. If, on the other hand, you ask "which part of the brain analyses pain (i.e. the experience), then that would have to be the limbic system (from the reticular formation in the brainstem upwards). But again, this is a system composed of many different 'parts' as opposed to 'a part'. Morover, as I said above, there is a central pain control mechanism which involves decending fibres from the limbic system and the periaqueductal grey matter to the raphe nucleus in the brainstem and from there down via raphe-spinal fibres which terminate around the primary spinothalamic synapses in the laminae of the dorsal horn. So nociceptive signals recieved by the limbic system, will already have been modulated to a degree by activity in the limbic system.

 

References:

 

Bush, G., Luu, P., & Posner, M. I. (2000). Cognitive and emotional influences in anterior cingulate cortex. Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 4 (6), 215-222.

[YoungStrife]

So pain is initially procssed in the spinal cord and dorsal horn initially process pain, but the limbic system "feels" pain, corrct?

 

Also, I like to see things for myself rather then reading them in articles I don't know are reliable or not, since I have run into MUCH :bs: in the times I researched, but thanks for the information, it's very usefull. The method of self inflicting pain was with the help of different amounts of pressure on my arm...though I believe that healthy doses of electric shock (extremely low ampage, higher voltage each time) would be a less dangerous way of self-inflicting pain.

 

But I am done with my pain inflicting days, in fact I have been for almost a year now...but at my highest degree, pain appeared to be like a little leashed puppy.

 

Further more, I believe that pain impares the cognitive processing ability neerly the identical way as any other kind of physcical/mental stress does. Since I found that by being nervous, and feeling pain, i was impared in different abilities a neer identical amount in each. (Example: bad at math questions, slightly lower speed at arranging toothpicks in holes.)

[blike]

Filipinos nailed to crosses

 

Kinda interesting. Really doesn't have much to do with this topic, but on TV it was discussing how this is a part of their culture and that it is seen as an honor (even though "church" officials oppose it). I don't imagine anyone in our (american) society would subject themselves to this.

[Glider]

On the contrary, it has everything to do with this topic.

 

This is one of many rituilistic self-mutilations that certain groups undergo, such as the (Asian) Indian hook-swinging ceremony; (North American) Indian rights of passage, African tribal rights of passage and so-on. It's one of big questions in pain; how can these people undergo what to most other people would be ubearable physical trauma?

 

These are examples of the modulation of pain at the limbic level. The limbic reagion contains the medial division of the pain matrix (the part that's responsible for the affective-motivation response to pain, and the 'suffering' associated with it). Also in the limbic area is the circuit of Papez, which it responsible for the detection and processing of emotionally salient information. hese two 'circuits' share several components.

 

The fact that people can undergo quite severe physical trauma in the apparent absence of pain (or at least tolerate the pain), leads people to think that certain states of limbic (emotional) arousal can modify the nociceptive signals recieved by the medial division of the pain matrix, resulting in their being 'reinterpreted', and also increase the amount of central feedback via raphespinal pathways (from the periaqueductal grey area in the brainstem), which provides a degree of modulation at the spinal level also.

[YoungStrife]

Thank you for bringing that up Glider.

 

When one reaches a certain level of pain, they tend to "zone out" or not suffer much of the effects that accompany pain. Thios is not because less pain neuons fire off, but the pain is intereperated in a different way.

 

Now when I undergo some kind of pain, I don't worry about the pain itself, but the physical damage done. And now the more I tend to sufvferless of pain, my wounds seem to leave scars behind. Whether this is only a coinsedence or a calculated effect of the body I do not know, BUT IT SUCKS! :lame:

[ronblue]

Technically speaking pain is discrepant information on two or more channels of information relative to a weighted history of the past.

 

For example: a tube of warm water and a tube of cold water circling equally a container will generate the psychological perception of extreme pain if you try to hold it.

[dr.syntax]

physical pain is a signal from the source of the pain that damage has/is occuring and the normal response is quickly move the injured body part away from the source of the pain. An example would be jerking one`s hand away from a hot stove if you unknowingly placed it on the hot stove. ...ds