Dead Brains and neurons

[Zolar V]

I got a question, that i just thought of.

 

It seems to me that even after you die, for a time, the neurons in your brain are still in the same configuration they were while you were alive. Thus i would hypothesize that if we were to be able to interpret neuron activity for thoughts, and understand how to activate the brain mechanically, we could extract any data that is left in the brain even after a person has died.

[Icefire]

it's possible, depending on how much of "us" is really the transmission of signals between the cells, and not just the configuration and shape of the cells.

in other words: if we were to make a working copy of one's brain after the cell activity has stopped, how exactly would we restart the cell activity? starting every cell may destroy the brain or damage data (before stopping again), and starting in the wrong area may just die down again after a while.

 

However: think of the brain as a computer. the information on how to access basic files and how to process is located in the electric charges traveling in the CPU and RAM. when the computer stops, you can't just fire a random charge into the CPU, you have to go through a fairly complicated processes called booting. Brains are not meant to be booted (which is why they are encased inside the skull), because once they start they should never stop.

 

now, there has been cases where people have been frozen in the Arctic and been brought back to life in certain cases, but they may have been in a form of hibernation and still had brain activity. and then there's unconscious people, who still have some brain activity, which in some cases is not able to restart the rest of the brain.

 

which means you probably can't restart the brain, which would probably be the only way of extracting data, because each individual brain would have a completely different way that brain is stored. with a live brain you could by trial-and-error figure out how each piece of data is encoded, but a dead brain might as well be a slimy paperweight. now put it back.

[Mr Skeptic]

The brain is one of the first parts to die -- it is a glutton for oxygen and glucose. If you die, you still have the connections between neurons (synapses). This information may be enough, although I have heard of the possibility that gene activation/deactivation may also play a role.

 

I think your best bet is to freeze your brain and then slice it up very thin and examine under a microscope to record the synapse structure.

[Icefire]

The brain is one of the first parts to die -- it is a glutton for oxygen and glucose. If you die, you still have the connections between neurons (synapses). This information may be enough, although I have heard of the possibility that gene activation/deactivation may also play a role.

 

I think your best bet is to freeze your brain and then slice it up very thin and examine under a microscope to record the synapse structure.

 

The synapse structure is 3d, correct?

a MRI would be best.

[Mr Skeptic]

I don't think MRI has the necessary resolution.

[Icefire]

or another 3d imaging scanner, idk

[Genecks]

I got a question, that i just thought of.

 

It seems to me that even after you die, for a time, the neurons in your brain are still in the same configuration they were while you were alive. Thus i would hypothesize that if we were to be able to interpret neuron activity for thoughts, and understand how to activate the brain mechanically, we could extract any data that is left in the brain even after a person has died.

 

 

Sure. There are varying time frames that exist. These time frames involve the amount of neural degeneration, which I believe Mr. Skeptic has discussed. After so much neural degeneration, you could suspect that varying engramatic properties of the brain would be gone. You would have to work quick.

 

To even create a virtual model might be good enough to keep a virtual existence of the person within the framework of reality. These are my physicalist opinions, however. Nonetheless, a person could state that our knowledge of neural networking is not good enough (or will never be good enough), thus we could never replicate the brain.

 

If you're wondering how to accomplish this, I've heard/read arguments for usage of nanotechnology. Some people say to slice and dice the brain in order to extract the physical properties and information contained. As a person who likes security engineering, I like the idea of using some kind of nanotech to quickly obtain all the data about placement and activity of physical structures without destroying the brain. The more practical option, as can be seen with a security engineer who doesn't have time to play around, is to destroy a system in order to learn from it. That often works unless a small amount of destruction would render something impossible to learn from. I don't think we have the nanotechnology to do things a non-destructive way, so the destructive method is more than likely going to be chosen.

 

p.s.

 

I like questions that use question marks.

It makes answering things a tad more specific.

A way to respond to what you've stated is to attempt to dismantle/refute the hypothesis, but I don't think that's why you made this thread. Maybe...

 

The synapse structure is 3d, correct?

 

Theoretically, yes.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Genecks

[LimbicLoser]

It seems to me that even after you die, for a time, the neurons in your brain are still in the same configuration they were while you were alive.

 

Here, we might reasonably suggest that you are talking about clinical death, rather than somatic death, correct? In that case, we would most likely not be able to say, 'after you die.' The reason being, that as far as spoken language goes, 'after you die' would refer to somatic death; in which case all neurons would be non-active.

 

However, it is quite a fact that at the general moment of somatic death, a person's synaptic arrangement will not suddenly change; simply the neuron and glia cells which support them, will fade in function.

 

 

Thus i would hypothesize that if we were to be able to interpret neuron activity for thoughts, and understand how to activate the brain mechanically, we could extract any data that is left in the brain even after a person has died.

 

Thinking out loud, if I may here, it might be good to more concretely lay out just what understanding might be achieved by such 'interpretation of neuron activity?' Also, if we wished to avoid a totally futuristic, and unfounded scenario, if might be good to keep in mind the limitations of knowledge at the moment--we simply cannot build a 'line of thought' from synaptic connection, now.

 

I might also suggest, that to hypothesize, it might be good to present some data upon which the hypotheses is built?