If you lose account of what happened, are you the same person?

[Nisou]

If you dont remember ever doing something that people said you did, then, are you the same person as the "person" that actually did the "thing"?? does every second of life determine who you are, if even 1 second was missed, would you be the same person?

 

this is kinda psychological.. but im curious

[Martin]

If you dont remember ever doing something that people said you did' date=' then, are you the same person as the "person" that actually did the "thing"?? does every second of life determine who you are, if even 1 second was missed, would you be the same person?

 

this is kinda psychological.. but im curious[/quote']

 

interesting question---here's an on-the-spot reply, I might say something different if i thought some:

 

I think identity is partly based on social conventions like

what you choose, what range of choice are you allowed,

what are you held responsible for

 

if a person were never allowed to make any choices and never held reponsible for anything he did, then he wouldnt have very much identity.

 

well 200 years ago in the Napoleon Wars they way they would get people to join the British army was to go around to taverns and get a man drunk and when he was drunk they got him to put his mark on the paper

So then he was in.

that means that even if he couldnt remember signing the paper it was him that signed it and he had to march off with the recruiters and join.

 

so that answers your question. yes you still are the same person even tho you cant remember----because the other people say it was you and assign you responsibility for it.

 

robinson crusoe on the island can decide things, talk to himself, make plans, make promises to himself-----and he accumulates a narrative of his life on the island so that if he ever gets back to other people he can recount the story----so he MAINTAINS his identity even in solitude, by postulating others that he interacts with and is, in some sense, responsible to.

 

hmmmmmm, this probably makes things more complicated for you.

well sorry if that was not what you wanted. it is an interesting question where does personal identity come from and does it involve other people

and what part does memory play

[LucidDreamer]

That's a strange question, but interesting. I would say that if you’re under the influence and acting differently then you normally do then you could be considered a different person. However, if you just forgot somehow and you were acting as you always do then I say you were the same person. I think in a way that you are defined by all of the seconds in your life. Though you could also be totally different at one point in your life then you were for most or some of the rest of it. For instance, you could be an alcoholic for 30 years and then decide to go sober. After that your behavior might be totally different and you could be considered a new person. But I don't think it matters whether you don't remember or you somehow lost time when considering who you are.

[5614]

a person builds up their personality over the course of their life time, so say, for instance, we take a physicist, who lost his/her memory, [anything, i just need any profession, or way of life] imagine that this persons whole life revolved around physics, all their friends were doctors, etc etc.

 

then one day, thet lost ALL of their memory...

 

they would NOT be the same person, as they would have lost all those yrs of building up their personality, who they are, but, their friends would still be real, all the doctors would try to get you to become who you were before, who they knew you as, you would be guided in the same direction, but ineitably, you are not the same person inside, you are on the outside, ie. who all your friends are. so its really a case of how the person reacts to everyone.

 

i know someone who lost their memory, he's pretty much the same person now, maybe hes more into certain subjects, then he was before, but maybe thats him growing up, maybe thats a difference in how he built up his personality,

 

whatever it is, it soon just becomes part of their life, they accept it, and move on.

[inamorata]

Are you still the same person as you were 24 hours ago, or even one hour ago, given that you have had an extra hour or 24 hours worth of experience?

 

What is it that makes you "you"?

[5614]

What is it that makes you "you"?

 

time, in a sense, what you do, who you are with, everything, over time.

 

ie. if you are with a bunch of doctors, over time, you will become like them, sharing expieriences etc. with them, but if you are kidnapped, your brain washed, and brought up in a mafia gang, your personality will change,

 

this is because:

 

you will have no memory of who you are, nor your past expieriences which mde you who you are, consequently you will become a new person.

 

the environment around you, makes you who you are...

[Nisou]

so basically once you've lost your memory, you are basically dead eh?

[inamorata]

And what of those with recurring short-term memory loss.

 

What of them? Who are they?

[YT2095]

surely memory loss is part of YOU anyway, so you`de still be, being yourself.

[5614]

surely memory loss is part of YOU anyway, so you`de still be, being yourself.

 

but what im saying is, how can you be yourself, if you dont know what yourself is?

 

if youve forgoten everything, you cannot act normally, as you dont know how to act, you cant act as you used to, because you cant remember anything you ever did...

 

it is a sad case, in which you seem to end up like a baby, with all of your all friends around you, guiding you in the direction that you used to be in, but you dont remember it.

[YT2095]

you would be "acting" exactly as you`de act if had forgotten everything.

 

therefore by default you`de still be true to yourself, there`s no escaping it.

[5614]

whilst you would be true to yourself, im saying, who or what is yourself?

 

if you'd forgotten EVERYTHING, what would normal be? what would yourself be? who would you be? who would your friends be?

 

what it was, the day before..... right?

 

but you cant remember the day before can you? you dont know what the old times were... you dont know who you are, what you are, where you come from, or how to act, you dont even know that killing is wrong! you know nothing, lost all memory in your head, forgotten everything.....

[YT2095]

you would be you that had experienced this loss.

[5614]

ok, whilsts neither of us can say for certain, as it has not happened to me, and if it had have happened to you, you would have said by now, however it has happened to a close friend of mine, unfortunately...

 

you would be you that had experienced this loss.

 

what im saying is that, you would not remember "you". you wouldnt remember your identity, you wouldnt even remember that you lost your memory, you'd just wake up and think "who am i?" "where am i?" without any other knowledge,

 

(that is assuming that you can think logically, and talk, if you'd fully lost your memory, you couldnt think logically, you couldnt talk either.) you'd be mentally equivilent to a new born baby.

[YT2095]

that`s a little different.

 

the concept of "You" is a variable, like `X`

`X` like any other variable may change it`s value or contents, but will always be `X`.

 

consider this: here `X` will = "My phone number"

 

today my "My phone number" is 1234.

 

I have it changed to 5678.

 

what is "my phone number"?

well it`s 5678 obviously

 

so no matter what "my phone number" IS it`s still "My phone number"

 

the same applies to "You", but what you`re actualy talking about is having your phone line cut off, and that`s a different thing entirely!

[5614]

unfortunately the human mind cannot be compared to a single algebraic figure or symbol.

 

however, in this one off case, lets imagine, that, our body, (and the point of this) our brain is X.

 

now X is 30 yrs old, and has consequently spent 30 years of his/her life, building up the X, the X started off as a dot, nothing, a dumb little baby! but over time X has built up a personality, built up a life, and most importantly built up, who X is.

 

now, back to the question, imagine X lost all of his memory, like a computer program, loosing its code, or a chemical loosing its bonds, the X looses the four pointy bits coming off it, it looses its memory.

 

when the memory goes, so does everything, because, as i said 2 paragraphs ago, it was time, which built up the X, and to remember everything, uses the memory, but X has lost its memory, it cant remember the last 30 years, consequently, it cant remember what it's ever done, consequently, it cant remember the personality, or life it has built up, conequently, X cannot remember who X is, it doesnt know itself.

 

its back to square one, like it was 30 years ago, with no previous knowledge of anything...

[YT2095]

unfortunately the human mind cannot be compared to a single algebraic figure or symbol.

but the word "YOU" can, as defined in the first post.

[5614]

ok, but the idea i was trying to get across is that, an algebraic symbol represents something, a figure, or even an unknown, however over time, does not advance and progress, does not learn, and basically, doesnt change.

 

whereas a human brain does all of those things, and is consequently changing. thus it cannot be X, as X is a non-variable.

 

whilst "YOU" could be an X, your brain cannot, neither can you actually, as "you" change, your brain changes, so does your body, they progress through life, continuously changing, whereas, that X will always stay the same, it is a symbol, not a moving living learning and evolving human brain! its just a mathematical constant.

[Nisou]

so lets put the X.. and the Y.. and the .. @_@, perhaps there is a constant in your head somewhere that doesnt change? or does every part of the brain change? is there any part of "personality" or "you" that stays the same cuz u were born that way?

[IMI]

Me thinks that you are whatever you are doing at this very moment. What you have done in the past, and what you may do in the future, are irrelevant. I've driven a race car...yet I am not a race car driver. I may again drive a race car but I'll never be a race car driver, per se. I think too many people limit themselves with their self-classifications.

[5614]

I've driven a race car...yet I am not a race car driver. I may again drive a race car but I'll never be a race car driver,

 

correct, but the fact that you have driven a race car, means that you have the ability to drive it again.

if you lost your memory, then you would forget the race car driving experience and consequatenly how to drive, therefore you would have to learn again.

 

that is what i was saying about your personality. it might be there, because youve worked for it, but if you loose, you have to re-work for it, re-learn it, all over again.

[YT2095]

so what you are NOW is YOU (I`de agree with that), but whatever you experience NEXT is STILL YOU, but it`s a you AFTER that experience, no matter WHAT that experience maybe (short of death).

[fuhrerkeebs]

Freud said we are dictated by our conciousness and our unconciousness. So losing all of your memory would not erase who you are, much lose losing a second or so of your life, because most of your actions are unconsious actions, and they do not necessarily rely on memory. It is your personal intuition, you might say.

[K. B. Robertson]

Are you still the same person as you were 24 hours ago' date=' or even one hour ago, given that you have had an extra hour or 24 hours worth of experience?

 

What is it that makes you "you"?[/quote']

 

Somewhere, someone likely wiser than I, wrote:

 

'You are the sum total of your experiences'.

 

This may be a kind of middle ground with what I've read of the responses to the thought provoking thematic question.

 

It seems most comparably parallel to inamorata's post on this issue (as quoted above).

 

There seems also to be several posted considerations likewise implying if not directly stating that, whatever loss of account, does not necessarily make you a different person, but rather 'the sum total of your experiences (though none of the posts here exactly say that, some, especially that of inamorta, certainly seem to be on it...)'; including whatever 'loss of account of what happened'.

(Moreover, it may be retained; but not in the frontal lobes? There may be a need for a refinement of the - acknolweged astute - interrogative issue at hand, here?)

 

Post Script:

 

 

'Losing account of what happened', does this mean a loss of a given memory (or whatever given series of memories of real experiential events), or does it mean an alteration or reinterpretation of 'what happened'?

 

(There seems to be a difference here which may not be accounted for?)

 

 

- Equus

[psi20]

There's this one person who lost all of his memories. He was found by a hitchhiker who thought he was dead. But he was still alive, but lost all his memories. For years he searched for his family and friends. He knew some things and his memory and logic struck on some things, but he never fully remembered anything. When he watched a movie about Chicago, he felt he'd been there before. He could type well and faster than anybody he knew, so he must've some background there. He went by a name people gave him at the shelter. He eventually found a job and works there. There were no missing persons case about him.

 

He wanted to know who he was. People asked him, "What if who you are is so bad that you wouldn't want to go back once you know?" He replied, "All I know is that I have a family somewhere. I want to see them, and I hope they want to see me too." He eventually found his family, except he was charged for forgery and embezzlement as well. He was a fugitive, but he lost all his memory of it.

 

What do you think? Should he go to jail or not?