Liberal Groups seeks to defame Tea Party

[Mr Skeptic]

If you mean #22, I'd say edit away. No one yet responded to it (well not a point-by point response anyways), and that is probably for the best.

[Pangloss]

I thought the point was that "Liberal Groups seeks to defame Tea Party". So far I've only seen evidence of one such "group", and not much evidence that this "group" was anything more than a single guy.

 

False? According to what? This?

 

But activists and organizers interviewed by POLITICO said the mischief was nowhere near as widespread or disruptive as they feared earlier in the week, when a wave of attention focused on a website called CrashtheTeaParty.org that encouraged liberals to pretend to be tea partiers, attend rallies and voice fringe sentiments to marginalize the movement (the website appears to have been stripped of most of its content Thursday).

 

A small group of folks from CrashtheTeaParty were rumored to be in the crowd on the Mall Thursday night with a sign disparaging lower income people.

 

Right, which would make your statement false. As would these quotes from the same article (as long as we're cherry-picking quotes):

 

To be sure, a handful of obvious crashers engaged in some mostly non-confrontational back-and-forth with tea party activists at a Thursday evening rally that drew thousands to Washington’s National Mall near the Washington Monument.

 

And some less overt crashers subtly mocked activists from amidst their ranks at both the evening rally on the Mall and an earlier event at Freedom Plaza near the White House.

 

A small group of folks from CrashtheTeaParty were rumored to be in the crowd on the Mall Thursday night with a sign disparaging lower income people.

 

And a group of five American University students, who were on average probably at least 25 years younger than most attendees at the FreedomWorks rally, waded through the crowd with signs ranging from the direct and challenging (“Embrace the state”) to the satirical (“I have a sign” and “Loud noises”) to the malapropically mocking (“No $ 4 educatoin. I don’t wnt it”).

 

So, not one guy. False.

 

And as I said before, beside the point which you seem bound and determined to ignore, which is that both sides can be provocative and demonstrative.

 

 

jryan is purporting that we give all of the Tea Partiers a bye on the exact sort of signs and other materials you were chastising "the left" for in the other thread because a massive liberal conspiracy has operatives at all major Tea Party events who are holding up fake signs to make the Tea Party look bad.

 

You have anything to say to jryan about that?

 

That's not what he said.

[bascule]

Right, which would make your statement false.

 

You know, continuing to say something doesn't make it true.

 

So, not one guy. False.

 

According to rumors? Uh huh...

 

And as I said before, beside the point which you seem bound and determined to ignore, which is that both sides can be provocative and demonstrative.

 

In what way am I ignoring that point? I entirely concede that. Meanwhile you seem to have quite the double standard yourself.

 

Sure: His statement isn't false.

 

jryan is claiming some massive liberal conspiracy with protesters at every Tea Party event, there for the purpose of impersonating the Tea Party members and making them look bad.

 

The evidence you've presented shows... one guy with a web site, and a rumored small group at a single event.

 

So yes, his statement is false.

 

Right, which would make your statement false. As would these quotes from the same article (as long as we're cherry-picking quotes):

 

Yes, let's look!

 

To be sure, a handful of obvious crashers engaged in some mostly non-confrontational back-and-forth with tea party activists at a Thursday evening rally that drew thousands to Washington’s National Mall near the Washington Monument.

 

Oh look at that, there's some liberals who showed up, not pretending to be teabaggers, and had some non-confrontational exchanges with the Tea Party people.

 

Much like there were "support our troops" types who attended war protest rallies.

 

There's nothing wrong with either of that, but that's not what jryan's claiming in this thread. jryan is claiming that we can't trust anything that looks bad about the Tea Party, because there's a massive liberal conspiracy out there astroturfing to make the teabaggers look bad. Seriously:

 

Given that this group exists, and claims to have operatives at all events[/b'], and major accusations have been found to be baseless, how reliable do you consider the evidence to be out there of racist signs and shouts at the Tea Party rallies?

 

jryan is trying to cast fear, uncertainty, and doubt about any bad information we see circulating about the tea party, because some massive liberal conspiracy with people at every event is astroturfing.

 

Do you really think that's going on? As for the other quotes:

 

And some less overt crashers subtly mocked activists from amidst their ranks at both the evening rally on the Mall and an earlier event at Freedom Plaza near the White House.

 

Is mockery defamation of the kind jryan is claiming?

 

A small group of folks from CrashtheTeaParty were rumored to be in the crowd on the Mall Thursday night with a sign disparaging lower income people.

 

Psst, that's the very quote you accused me of cherry picking...

 

And a group of five American University students, who were on average probably at least 25 years younger than most attendees at the FreedomWorks rally, waded through the crowd with signs ranging from the direct and challenging (“Embrace the state”) to the satirical (“I have a sign” and “Loud noises”) to the malapropically mocking (“No $ 4 educatoin. I don’t wnt it”).

 

Parody and satire defamation?

 

So how many people does that add up to? A couple dozen? Does that really match what jryan was claiming in the OP?

 

Bascule, you've hung your hat on "Democrats good, Republicans bad", and for evidence of this you regularly offer singular examples just like the one presented here.

 

Pangloss, jryan is spreading misinformation, and not only are you oblivious to the fact, you're defending him.

 

So I simply suggested to jryan that he offer a different opinion on the matter.

 

jryan is offering untruths. That's different from an opinion.

 

Enjoy a little diversity in the forum? I know I do.

 

I think you're a conservative and enjoy more conservatives on the politics forum. I don't know how else to interpret your response to this thread. It's predicated on factual inaccuracies, and not only are you doing nothing about it, you're defending it.

 

I like facts, not spin. The sheer level of hyperbole and spin in this thread is simply ridiculous. There is no massive liberal conspiracy to astroturf the Tea Party with liberals at every event impersonating the Tea Party and making it look bad.

[Pangloss]

jryan is claiming some massive liberal conspiracy with protesters at every Tea Party event, there for the purpose of impersonating the Tea Party members and making them look bad.

 

He didn't use the word massive, and that does not seem to me to have been his point. He did ask whether we can trust the signs of racism at these events. This appears to be a valid question.

 

 

jryan is trying to cast fear, uncertainty, and doubt about any bad information we see circulating about the tea party, because some massive liberal conspiracy with people at every event is astroturfing.

 

No, he's pointing out that some people have pretended to be tea party group members in an attempt to make them look worse than they really are. The Politico article backs this up. It directly refutes, with factual evidence, your statement that it is one person.

 

Does that matter? Not really. But it's not one guy.

 

 

I think you're a conservative and enjoy more conservatives on the politics forum. I don't know how else to interpret your response to this thread. It's predicated on factual inaccuracies, and not only are you doing nothing about it, you're defending it.

 

I'm sure it seems that way. I would just remind you that I voted for Kerry in 2004 and Obama in 2008. I've been very up-front and on-the-record about my mixed, middle-of-the-road position.

 

 

I like facts, not spin.

 

Here's a little surprise for you: I'm not interested in facts OR spin. When it comes to THIS subforum, what I'm interested in is your opinion. And I intend to do everything I can to make sure that everyone who visits this subforum gets to post their opinions too. Even when some of the members don't like them.

 

Those of you on the left forget that you can't argue with people who agree with you. A discussion forum full of people who agree with each other is completely worthless. You should thank me for supporting and encouraging conservatives to come in here, step up, and let you tell them just how wrong they are.

[iNow]

Sixty-four percent believe that the president has increased taxes for most Americans, despite the fact that the vast majority of Americans got a tax cut under the Obama administration. Thirty-four percent of the general public says the president has raised taxes on most Americans.

So can I assume 36% did *not* believe the president has increased taxes for most americans?

Sure, you can assume that, but you'd be wrong. You'd be leaving out all of those who a) did not respond, and b) responded that they were unsure.

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Here's a little surprise for you: I'm not interested in facts OR spin.

That pretty much says it all right there, now, doesn't it?

 

Pangloss concedes he's not interested in facts. We all knew it already, but he's now admitted it openly.

 

Screw you and your facts. Opinions are more important.

 

 

When it comes to THIS subforum, what I'm interested in is your opinion.

 

 

You should thank me for supporting and encouraging conservatives to come in here, step up, and let you tell them just how wrong they are.

You are not supporting different opinion or ideologies, Pangloss. Bascule is quite right that you are defending factual inaccuracies and blatant falsehoods. Then, in the very next breadth, you are implying that you are praise-worthy for doing so.

 

 

 

 

Pangloss, jryan is spreading misinformation, and not only are you oblivious to the fact, you're defending him.

 

<...>

 

jryan is offering untruths. That's different from an opinion.

 

<...>

 

I think you're a conservative and enjoy more conservatives on the politics forum. I don't know how else to interpret your response to this thread. It's predicated on factual inaccuracies, and not only are you doing nothing about it, you're defending it.

 

<...>

 

The sheer level of hyperbole and spin in this thread is simply ridiculous.

Quite right.

[bascule]

He didn't use the word massive

 

No, he just claimed they were at every single Tea Party protest in the country:

 

Given that this group exists, and claims to have operatives at all events

 

jryan is trying to cast fear' date=' uncertainty, and [b']doubt[/b] about any bad information we see circulating about the tea party, because some massive liberal conspiracy with people at every event is astroturfing.

 

No, he's pointing out that some people have pretended to be tea party group members in an attempt to make them look worse than they really are. The Politico article backs this up. It directly refutes, with factual evidence, your statement that it is one person.

 

No, Pangloss, no. I guess we have to back to the thread that spawned this one:

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?p=558904#post558904

 

It was smart of you to ignore the part about the plots that were uncovered that cast strong doubt on all of your photographic evidence[/b']. Calling foul on the "screed" comment was your only plausible defense.

 

He's alleging multiple plots to defame the Tea Party, not just liberals showing up to their protests. And he is very much using fear, uncertainty, and doubt to try to distract from the things that are going on at the Tea Party. In fact-free jryan-land, when liberals make threats against the president's life or burn him in effigy that's what's really going on, but when presented with photographic evidence of the Tea Party doing the exact same thing we can't trust it, because there are liberals at every Tea Party astroturfing.

 

If you don't like it then take it up with crashtheteaparty.org. They are the ones that have been fooling you.

 

Does that matter? Not really. But it's not one guy.

 

F*cking Christ Pangloss, do I have to spell it out for you?

 

1) Only one person is known to be affiliated with crashtheteaparty.org

2) Other people were rumored to have shown up to one protest because of crashtheteaparty.org

3) Sure, other liberals showed up and offered their own combination of dialogue, satire, and mockery, but they were not affiliated with crashtheteaparty.org

 

So no, you are wrong, and worse you are painting rumor as fact.

 

Here's a little surprise for you: I'm not interested in facts...

 

That comes as no surprise to me, and iNow has expressed his concerns on just this matter. Facts aren't something you just brush off. If someone's opinion disagrees with the facts, that makes their opinion wrong, sorry.

 

I'm pretty much done here. Looks like jryan's troll has lead to yet another flamewar. I think it's time to adopt a DNFT approach to jryan.

Edited April 17, 2010 by bascule

[Mr Skeptic]

Here's a little surprise for you: I'm not interested in facts OR spin. When it comes to THIS subforum, what I'm interested in is your opinion.

 

But opinions are just another form of fact (personalized, anecdotal facts).

[Pangloss]

But opinions are just another form of fact (personalized, anecdotal facts).

 

Well I suppose one's opinion is a matter of fact, in that sense.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Pangloss

[bascule]

Here's some evil liberals defaming the Tea Party in action:

 

[Pangloss]

See? SEE?!?!

 

(grin)

[jryan]

Pangloss, jryan is spreading misinformation, and not only are you oblivious to the fact, you're defending him.

 

Somehow it's gone from reporting a mans claim, and providing evidence of liberal interference at the events, and the lack of corroboration of the most publicized outburst to me spreading misinformation?

 

The actual disinformation of this subject comes form you, bascule. You spend a considerable amount of effort posting photos reportedly from tea party rallies that you then use to justify your accusations against the tea party movement as a whole. Your accusation that I am spreading misinformation is what they call in Psychology "projection".

 

 

jryan is offering untruths. That's different from an opinion.

 

What untruths would those be, bascule?

 

 

I think you're a conservative and enjoy more conservatives on the politics forum. I don't know how else to interpret your response to this thread. It's predicated on factual inaccuracies, and not only are you doing nothing about it, you're defending it.

 

And you find some photos on a liberal blog of people holding up signs and to you that is concrete evidence.

 

 

I like facts, not spin..

 

Hahahahah!

Edited April 19, 2010 by jryan