What happens when you run out of money for fair wages and social programs?

[Pangloss]

Apparently you burn.

 

Unions say low-income Greeks will suffer disproportionately from the latest austerity measures, which aim to save euro30 billion ($40 billion) -- the country's current budget deficit -- through 2012.

 

"These people are losing their rights, they are losing their future," said Yiannis Panagopoulos, head of GSEE, one of the two largest unions. "The country cannot surrender without a fight."

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/3-dead-as-antiausterity-riots-apf-4019313165.html?x=0

 

The Canadian European Economic Council says that this problem is based at least in part on "Keynesian profligacy" and "putting ideology over common sense". (source, warning: PDF)

 

The liberal New York Times focuses instead on tax evasion, suggesting that Greeks just need to "grow up":

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

 

“We need to grow up,” said Ioannis Plakopoulos, who like all owners of newspaper stands will have to give receipts and start using a cash register under the new tax laws passed last month. “We need to learn not to cheat or to let others cheat.”

 

But for an organization that adheres to an ideology that ostensibly believes in the root cause theory of responsibility, the Times seems oddly reluctant to seek the root cause of Greek tax-dodging. Income tax ranges as high as 40%, plus a Social Securty Tax of just over 28% (mandatory withholding). The country also has a VAT tax on sales ranging as high as 19%. I couldn't tell if that was in addition to a local sales tax or not, but it's not hard to see why they have such a huge "shadow economy". (source)

 

BTW, Greece's debt is only 13.6% of its GDP (source). Ours was recently authorized to climb to the 80% mark.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Pangloss

[bascule]

A"Keynesian profligacy" and "putting ideology over common sense"

 

They go from "Keynesian profligacy" to "putting ideology over common sense"? Does that juxtaposition seem humorous to anyone else?

 

The liberal New York Times focuses instead on tax evasion, suggesting that Greeks just need to "grow up"

 

Psst, just because a newspaper includes a quote doesn't make it a "suggestion" on the part of the newspaper.

 

Also, "the liberal New York Times"? Should I start prefixing any references to News Corp, Fox, etc. as "the ultraconservative News Corp"?

Edited May 5, 2010 by bascule

[jryan]

Also, "the liberal New York Times"? Should I start prefixing any references to News Corp, Fox, etc. as "the ultraconservative News Corp"?

 

Haven't you already started a thread that specifically asks others to do just that?

 

From the opening post in that thread:

 

"If someone starts a thread citing only a News Corp source, provide additional sources, commentary, your own opinion, and gently remind the poster that News Corp is not a traditional news organization and is attempting to foster a particular narrative in which they present news which is not objective and in many cases can lead to counterproductive discussion."

 

Isn't Pangloss simply "gently reminding" that the New York Times has a liberal bias?

[Pangloss]

It's not like I accused it of not being a news organization.

 

Psst, just because a newspaper includes a quote doesn't make it a "suggestion" on the part of the newspaper.

 

That's something you could keep in mind when you criticize Fox News and other News Corp outlets. I'd disagree with you in doing so, however, because I have no problem with reading between the lines. It's the reporter who decides what aspect of the story constitutes news.

[waitforufo]

What happens when you run out of money? You spend Germany’s money.

 

As Thatcher said, the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.

 

The people of Greece are murdering people in the streets because the working people of Germany are unwilling to provide for the working people of Greece in a manner to which they have become accustomed.

[padren]

I can't say whether the Greek people have genuine cause to be upset or not (talking about protest, not murder) however it's pretty obvious we know of many situations where corruption leads to the borrowing of money in the name of a people, who then do not see it. Dictatorships often borrow money for guns to point at the heads of the very people they borrowed that money in the name of.

 

Now of course, Greece is not a dictatorship or some despotic unstable nation under marshal law with no civil rights. They are somewhere between that extreme (and very far from it) and the other side of the spectrum where mobs are behaving as waitforufo stated.

 

Naturally I condemn the violence, but I'd need to know a lot more about the actual level of corruption and whether the protests are about a reasonable issue or just anger over entitlement issues.

[john5746]

The people of Greece are murdering people in the streets because the working people of Germany are unwilling to provide for the working people of Greece in a manner to which they have become accustomed.

 

Let's hope China doesn't feel the same about the US.

 

 

So, what to do when too big to fail finally does? Get to work.

[Moontanman]

Let's hope China doesn't feel the same about the US.

 

 

So, what to do when too big to fail finally does? Get to work.

 

WOW sounds like where I used to work,

[bascule]

That's something you could keep in mind when you criticize Fox News and other News Corp outlets.

 

Because a single source quoted in an article is the equivalent of a paid commentator? What?

 

Pangloss, I'm asking you as the moderator of this forum, please try harder. You are equivocating things which are simply no where close to being equal.