Electrical Sparks

[Callipygous]

Updated at post 42.

 

 

I don't know what science this belongs in so forgive me if its misplaced : P

 

I'm trying to generate a spark with a 9v battery and some basic electronics. I know that in normal air it takes 50K volts per inch of spark, but I dont want to do it in normal air. I want to do it in a mixture of 2 hydrogens 1 oxygen (gas form. yes, i know thats water) plus a minor amount of regular air. I am curious if it takes more or less voltage to spark in that kind of atmosphere and if someone a lot smarter than me can tell me about how much different it is.

[Kedas]

uhhmm you do know that the gasses will be water again the moment that you let it spark/burn?

 

To get the spark with a relay and a transfo (or two) this should work

maybe you should ask YT2095 I'm pretty sure he has experiance in making sparks.

[Callipygous]

yeah, i know it will turn to water (although im curious if that process will involve flame or just steam) . i just dont know how much i need to get the voltage to.

 

also, if anyone knows how to make the absolute simplest inverter(dc to ac) possible, id like to know that too. or even just burst dc so it will work in a transformer. (will a very small capacitor be enough for a transformer to work, or is that not fast enough?)

[pulkit]

also, if anyone knows how to make the absolute simplest inverter(dc to ac) possible

What do you mean ?

What exactly do you want this thing to do ?

[Callipygous]

i want to increase the voltage in my 9v battery to closer to 5000 volts so that the distance it will spark is visable to the human eye. i have been told there is no easy way to increase the voltage of dc, so i need to be able to run it through a transformer. transformers dont work with dc, the field has to expand and contract, i dont know how to turn dc on and off fast enough to do that but i know there are ways.

 

i also want to know if it will spark farther with less voltage (or vice versa) in an environment consisting of mostly hydrogen and oxygen.

[pulkit]

Piezo electric crystals tend to generate square waves of a fixed frequency. They are cheap and easily available circuit components that generally run on a few vols DC ( 9 would suffice ).

Also you get them in various frequencies, they are used in all circuits that have micro controllers.

[Callipygous]

i thought those were the crystals that generate large voltages when compressed, found in bbq lighters. am i mistaken?

 

are you saying that if i run a dc current through this crystal it will come out as crappy ac? whats your definition of cheap? my budget is close to 0.

[pulkit]

I am not sure of how to build the circuit for it, but I have used such a crystal in a controller circuit I made recently.

I needed it to supply my micro controller with a 4MHz square wave, and saw the square wave on an oscilloscope as well, so it does work.

When I say chaep, I mean less than a dollar.

The component I used was called a 4MHz crystal. You have a similar crystal inside evry computer to power your micro processor, just that those run in GHz nowadays.

[Kedas]

To get a changing current you can just feed the relay with the battery and make sure the circuit runs through the closed contact of the relay when it has enough current the relay will break the current this will on its turn close the relay again and so on.

(its not very healthy for you relay but its the easied way to get an changing current)

you will probably already have sparks in your relay due to the EMF

[Callipygous]

so its not the crystal that does the conversion, its just a part of the process, i need to have the rest of that circuitry you used for it to work, right? do they come closer to like 60hz instead of 4mhz? : P

 

thanks for the info.

[Callipygous]

To get a changing current you can just feed the relay with the battery and make sure the circuit runs through the closed contact of the relay when it has enough current the relay will break the current this will on it's turn close the relay again and so on.

 

relay?

[Kedas]

relay?

 

http://www.directindustry.com/prod/relays_58481.html

 

They aren't very expensive you have lot's of diff. ones you need a simple old one with coil (that blue part in picture) not the advanced electronic versions.

[Kedas]

yeah' date=' i know it will turn to water (although im curious if that process will involve flame or just steam) . i just dont know how much i need to get the voltage to.

[/quote']

 

Oh yes it will involve colourfull flames/explosion the hot steam is for when the flames are gone.

About how much gas/volume are we talking and is it a closed champer that holds the gasses?

anyway do your experiments outside make sure to be on a safe distance.

[Kedas]

Found a link for you:

http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/electro/electro4.html

[5614]

do they come closer to like 60hz instead of 4mhz? : P

 

you could try using a 555 timer chip, its a simple easy to use chip, i think you might get near 60Hz, but remember, that is 60 times a second, thats fast, but i'm sure that the 555 timer will manage those speeds.!

[drz]

hey, as to the simple dc-ac inverter,

 

a cheap disposable camera with a flash has such a thing. I got a couple a web link for ya;

 

http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/camera_electronics.html

 

tried some pics, but they are horrible.

[swansont]

Here is an overview of Paschen's law, and the breakdown voltages of various gases.

[swansont]

I am not sure of how to build the circuit for it' date=' but I have used such a crystal in a controller circuit I made recently.

I needed it to supply my micro controller with a 4MHz square wave, and saw the square wave on an oscilloscope as well, so it does work.

When I say chaep, I mean less than a dollar.

The component I used was called a 4MHz crystal. You have a similar crystal inside evry computer to power your micro processor, just that those run in GHz nowadays.[/quote']

 

Odds are that was a resonator circuit that had the piezo in it - AFAIK PZTs expand/contract a certain amount when a voltage is placed on them (with the distance related to the voltage), but have resonance responses. So if you mount them in an appropriate RLC circuit then they will oscillate. This is how a lot of cheap buzzers work (the < $1 variety) and, as you say, how other oscillators and clocks work as well.

[Callipygous]

so... much ...info...

 

you guys rock, thanks.

 

 

ill go through the links and write longer replies later, but i gotta work now, just checking in really quick.

[Lance]

you could try using a 555 timer chip, its a simple easy to use chip, i think you might get near 60Hz, but remember, that is 60 times a second, thats fast, but i'm sure that the 555 timer will manage those speeds.!

 

whaaat? 555 Timers are rated up to 1Mhz. 60Hz is slooow. That’s the frequency of the US wall outlet. Flybacks resonate somewhere around 20khz-40kHz.

 

I would find an old TV or computer monitor and tear the flyback out. Then just build a 555 or single transistor driver to drive it.

 

By the way I was thinking of having some 555 driver boards custom made. They would be useful fro multiple applications including driving flybacks. Would anybody be interested in buying one if I have them made?

[Callipygous]

Here[/url'] is an overview of Paschen's law, and the breakdown voltages of various gases.

 

 

good stuff...i tried to understand what on earth it was talking about but the best i could come up with is that H2 takes less voltage than air, while O2 takes more. is that right? from the equations they are giving me it seems like higher pressure requires more voltage. any flaws in what i got out of that?

[Callipygous]

hey' date=' as to the simple dc-ac inverter,

 

a cheap disposable camera with a flash has such a thing. I got a couple a web link for ya;

 

http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/camera_electronics.html

 

tried some pics, but they are horrible.[/quote']

 

1. The first stage of the circuit operates when the charging button is pressed. It boosts the voltage of the 1.5 volt battery to a high voltage. A capacitor and inductor (coil) form an oscillator.

 

so are the capacitor and inductor coil from the camera all i need to make it ac? then i can up the voltage on my own?

[Callipygous]

Oh yes it will involve colourfull flames/explosion the hot steam is for when the flames are gone.

About how much gas/volume are we talking and is it a closed champer that holds the gasses?

anyway do your experiments outside make sure to be on a safe distance.

 

yes... i wasnt planning on sparking a flamable gas inside my house. : P

 

we are talking about the volume held by your average party balloon(unless i can find something bigger for not a lot of money ).

 

colorful? colorful in the same way all flames are colorful, or are we talking more than just your standard orange/yellow/red?

[YT2095]

you have several options with a 9volt batt to make some rather large sparks, a "chattering relay" circuit will make some respectable sparks and deliver some apreciable electrical shocks!.

it`s basicly a relay with the 9volts passing through the normaly closed contact of the relay to the ralay solenoid, the ralay gets power, breaks the contact, looses power, the contacts close again, then it gets power..... and will continue like that for the life of the battery. you`ll get the sparks across the solenoid contacts as the feild collapses creating back emf.

 

of course if you want MEGA SPARKS, consider using a car ignition coil with the same circuit

[Callipygous]

i normally try not to spread this around too much incase john ashcroft is listening in, but i think you guys can help me better if you understand the application.

 

i want to heat 2 nails and push them into a water bottle, poor some distilled water in the bottle, cap it off by tying a balloon over the mouth, and hook the nails up to a large amount of voltage. note: electrolosis does not take large amounts of voltage, thats for later. as my battery sits there turning H2O into H + O the water level will be dropping and the balloon will be filling, hopefully lifting the whole thing off the ground. when the water level gets low enough the nails will be exposed and will spark now that they dont have an insulator between them, thus igniting my contraption in a fiery blaze in the night sky.

 

problem: get voltage up while keeping weight (and cost) down.