Biomass generating Hydrogen

[Thales]

Does anyone have a link to how to calculate the amount of hydrogen plants make as a by-product of photo synthesis? Either that or which plant is the most efficient at this?

[deltanova]

Plants produce Hydrogen???????

[Primarygun]

If you mean the hydrogen atoms the product carries,

then it is 12H2O----->24H +6O2

then hydrogen atom is used to combine with carbon dioxide

24H + 6CO2 ---> C6H12O6 + 6H2O

the overall equation is 12H2O+24H + 6CO2----->C6H12O6 + 6H2O + 6O2

The six water molecule will be used again, so the hydrogen atoms are mainly in the glucose molecule.

There is a limiting reactant, CO2

You can calculate the gram of CO2 first and then you may get the gram of glucose produced.

Just find the ratio of the weight of 12 hydrogen atoms in a molecule of it to the weight of a glucose molecule.

The last 6 water molecules in experiment is not used for the photosynthesis. However, I think they do not leave because they are used with oxygen to oxidizing food to generate energy.

Hence, this theoretical product is not the same as the analyzing value.

To obtain a preciser result, I suggest you to kill the plant immediately.

Is these things you are finding?

[Thales]

Cheers Primarygun, those equations will go into my records. The reason I was asking was because if a plant(possibly a food crop) needs water, but can generate hydrogen, then wouldn't it make sense to combine the hydrogen with the oxygen the plant expells in order to make this water(via a fuel cell)?

 

The process creates heat, electricity and most likely a small excess of water, all while making a crop grow in the most arid of areas?

 

Thoughts/Criticisms more than welcome...

[YT2095]

biomass, usualy creates Methane CH4 mostly, as opposed to Hydrogen.

 

it can also be distilled to make liquid fuels also

[Sayonara]

You're thinking of biogas.

[YT2095]

yeah, that`s the one, some folks even have their own biomass converters in the back yard, to make this gas and liquid fuel from it, one or 2 even run a car on it and varios other "petrol" based engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws etc...)

 

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember a method that uses steam and this gas, reacted together under pressure to make Hydrogen also. During the war there were quite a few vehicles that towed a trailer with such convertors on it too

[Skye]

Plants pump H+ inside their chloroplasts, across the thylakoid membrane. This is performed by the two photosystems (photosystem I and II), two large groups of proteins. Photosystem I can actually do it on its own though. The H+ is then more highly concentrated inside the chloroplast and wants to equalibrate. Plants allow the H+ out through an enzyme called ATP synthase, which uses the force of the flow of H+ ions to add a phosphate to an adenosine diphosphate (ADP) to form adenosine triphophate (ATP). ATP is an important source of energy within the cell.

 

So the H+ ions are very important. The are utilised by the plant to produce energy. One of the many reasons plants need water is that photosystem I splits it to produce H+ and O2, the H+ ions being used to power the ATP synthase.

[Thales]

One of the big problems with our atmosphere is its abundance of CO2, so if plants Do create hydrogen, be it in miniscule amounts, wouldn't it be a good idea to combine it with the oxygen the plant expels. This process would effectively turn CO2 and sunlight into water and carbohydrates...yes/no?

[YT2095]

the only problem I can see it that the "carbohydrate" would be Methane, and that`s an even worse "Greenhouse" gas

[Primarygun]

One of the big problems with our atmosphere is its abundance of CO2, so if plants Do create hydrogen, be it in miniscule amounts, wouldn't it be a good idea to combine it with the oxygen the plant expels. ?

I have just learnt simple photosynthesis, but I'd try my best.

Plants do not want to combine the oxygen molecule with hydrogen atom because the hydrogen atom is needed to carry the light energy into the light independent stage ( combine with CO2)

wouldn't it be a good idea to combine it with the oxygen the plant expels. ?

Oh Are you talking about water molecule combines with carbon dioxide to form glucose and do not give oxygen?

I'd think it's because energy is needed during reaction and the energy for the combination of two molecules are large than just very "light" hydrogen atoms to combine with carbon dioxide atoms. OR the oxygen molecule may affect to form carbonhydrates.

Am I right?

[Thales]

YT the carbohydrates are the plants mass, stored as its 'flesh and bones'. Primarygun, my initial conjecture rests on the idea, which I still believe to be correct that there is an excess(small perhaps but an excess no less) of hydrogen produced. To simplify;

 

CO2 + Photons + H20 = Oxygen + Hyrdogen + Carbohydrates(food)

Oxygen + Hyrdogen = Heat + Electrons + H20

 

H20 goes back into the plant. So the system operates independently of local water supplies(or lack there of). Overall benefit;

 

Less CO2 in the atmosphere

Heat

Electricity

Food

Small Excess of water

 

Seems logical enough to me...

[Skye]

Ok the thing is that the H+ is utilised. It's not a by-product. The only extra energy you are utilising is from the O2, but that would mean we'd have nothing to breathe.

[Sayonara]

I've just come back to this thread and I have to say it's quite disturbing.

[Thales]

... that would mean we'd have nothing to breathe.

 

Not if the plant was created for the specific purpose of cleaning the C02 out of the air.

[Skye]

Plants already do that though.

[Thales]

But the oxygen they generate can easily be re-converted by us, if we turn it into water, with the aid of a plant then we solve the water shortage problem and the pollution problem somewhat.

[RICHARDBATTY]

yeah' date=' that`s the one, some folks even have their own biomass converters in the back yard, to make this gas and liquid fuel from it, one or 2 even run a car on it and varios other "petrol" based engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws etc...)

 

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember a method that uses steam and this gas, reacted together under pressure to make Hydrogen also. During the war there were quite a few vehicles that towed a trailer with such convertors on it too [/quote']I believed that the metabolizers for increasing gas production in this way were prohibitive from a cost point. Has this changed or has another method been found.

[YT2095]

it`s been a long time since I was on Energy 2000`s mailing list, but I expect it must have changed somewhat since the war (WW2) as quite a few folk on there use them

[coquina]

Remember that in WW2 the oil supplies in the North Sea had not been discovered. Britain had no fuel supply of its own and very little got through the U Boat packs.

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures, even if they're not economically sensible.

[Martin]

coal can be converted to so-called "water gas" using steam

coal can also be converted by partial combustion to CO plus miscelleous combustible gases

the UK had plenty of coal in the Forties

 

 

I could be wrong' date=' but I seem to remember a method that uses steam and this gas, reacted together under pressure to make Hydrogen also. During the war there were quite a few vehicles that towed a trailer with such convertors on it too [/quote']

 

I think I remember seeing a photo of a trailer gas-generator that basically used coal or something derived from coal----the truck pulling the gas generator used the gas

 

yeah' date=' that`s the one, some folks even have their own biomass converters in the back yard, to make this gas and liquid fuel from it, one or 2 even run a car on it and varios other "petrol" based engines (lawn mowers, chainsaws etc...)

[/quote']

 

Indeed some people do have stationary biogas (methane) generators which however go rather slow. You would not tow it behind the car for it to generate methane in real-time

 

the fermentation process is too slow to produce transportation fuel in real time----or so I am told: if you have something that says different please post it. might have to stop along the way to let the mash ferment a little more.

 

but all sorts of vegetable material will work----leaves, algae, garbage, compost of any sort, anything anaerobic bacteria will eat---the result is about 50 percent methane and 50 percent CO2 by volume. the CO2 can be removed and the methane can be stored in tanks.

[YT2095]

coal can be converted to so-called "water gas" using steam

coal can also be converted by partial combustion to CO plus miscelleous combustible gases

the UK had plenty of coal in the Forties

 

the fermentation process is too slow to produce transportation fuel in real time----or so I am told: if you have something that says different please post it. might have to stop along the way to let the mash ferment a little more.

Water Gas ) that`s the thing I was thinking of, I just couldn`t remember its name (been a long time!).

 

as for the second part quoted here, I have no info to the contrary, you`re quite correct.

pig/cow and not so much Horse manure can also produce great quantities of Methane if left to ferment (ignoring Ammonia and COx products). but again idea for a stationary platform as opposed the mobile, although the products can be (and have been) used in balloon bags to power vehicles )