Hadron Collider

[rigney]

What if this "Big Boy" in Cern finds that, either the Higgs Boson or the Quark to be a finite level of matter? Do we try going beyond this pale, or are there some things we best leave alone?

[JohnB]

If the big gun at CERN can't find what we are looking for, then we need a bigger gun.

[rigney]

Love your input JohnB, but what "if it does"? Do we then try peeking behind this onesided slice of bread?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I'd imagine that if the LHC turns up new particles or new physics, it'll take a lot of work before anyone knows what the next step is. What you do next depends on what you discover now.

[JohnB]

I agree with the Cap'n, if it does, then we have more research to do to decide what to do next.

 

Do we try peeking behind the slice?

 

Yes. Always.

 

Mankind is a curious creature, exploring is what we do. Whether it's the LHC, or sitting on top of a rocket, or dropping down to the abyssal deeps, those at the forefront are continuing a tradition that started when the first of our ancestors wondered "What is over that hill?"

 

The dress has changed from animal hides to flight suits and lab coats, but the drive to look, to see, to find is the same.

 

If we ever stop looking, then we will have given up one of the major things that makes us Human.

 

Though much is taken, much abides; and though

We are not now that strength which in the old days

Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are,

One equal-temper of heroic hearts,

Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

 

Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

[Severian]

Its actually not so clear to me. We will find something at the LHC, but if it is just the Higgs boson and we have no deviation from the Standard Model, I am worried that we will not get funding for another collider.

 

We got the LHC because we were able to give a guarantee of finding something. The Higgs boson, or something else, has to be there by 1 TeV otherwise the theory breaks down. (There are a few models now which have new effects that would be very difficult or impossible to see at the LHC, but these are more recent than the funding allocation.)

 

If we find the Higgs boson and confirm the SM, there is no guarantee that the next collider will find anything new at all. We would have to build it with the motivation of studying the currently known particles more precisely and I am not sure that the politicians will understand the value of that.

 

Even if they do, a new collider would not be approved until all the corners of parameter space had been explored by the LHC. Let's say that is 2022. It takes about 10 years to plan and build, so we wouldn't have a new collider until about 2032.

[JohnB]

Sheesh, physicists! You shouldn't be allowed to talk to politicians without a scriptwriter.

 

There are two possibilities. You find the Higgs, or you don't.

 

If don't find it, then there are a few options.

 

a) Say that the theory was slightly wrong and the Higgs is at 2.5 TeV, so you need a bigger gun.

 

b) Say that new theories predict a different particle that is harder to find and so you need a bigger gun.

 

c) Say that even though you didn't find the Higgs, you noticed some really odd readings at 1 TeV that require further study and you need a bigger gun.

 

Or you could try some variations on the themes.

 

Now, if you do find it;

 

a) Say you found it, but the resolution isn't good enough. So like an Astronomer needs a bigger telescope, you need a bigger gun.

 

b) Say you found it, but it isn't behaving as expected. So to study it better, you need a bigger gun.

 

c) Say you found it and it hints at other "needed" particles. So to study them, you need a bigger gun.

 

And of course variations on the theme.

 

Either way it goes, make sure you put certain things into any conversation with the politicians.

 

"It "might" help make nuclear reactors cleaner and better for the environment."

 

"It "may" give us the insight to make practical fusion reactors. Cheap power and no pollution."

 

"Reduce pollution"

 

"our childrens future"

 

The first rule of dealing with politicians: Whatever you are asked to study, it is always harder, more complex and worse than you thought. Therefore you need a bigger budget to study it.

 

Any further advice on multi billion dollar projects comes at my standard fee.

 

:D

[rigney]

I'm not an advocate of "bean counters or politicians", but what if after ten or twenty years of analysis we find this latest big gun "has reached" the ultimate level of matter? What then? Would our search continue beyond this point to search as to how or why the boson or quauk was created? This is the pale I'am speaking of. Even with a fabulous wealth of intelligence amassed ready to make such a search, would it be wise? Remember, we're not "in" there now just looking for an America, Greenland or China!

 

How does the old adage go:? A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only once!!

[JohnB]

You forget, even if we find the "ultimate" particle, it is only the ultimate baryonic particle. That still leaves 95% of Universal matter to explore.

 

We're talking here about how Universes are created. No offence to our physicists, but I doubt that little mystery will be solved in the next 20 years, or the next 20 centuries.

 

Each time we find out something new, our understanding of how much more there is that we don't know expands.

[timo]

You forget, even if we find the "ultimate" particle, it is only the ultimate baryonic particle.

That is a pretty strong statement. I don't think that "baryonic" is what you meant in this context -> there's a lot of leptonic matter arriving at the detector. Dark matter (candidate particles) would also not be completely unexpected.

[rigney]

Thanks JohnB. Appreciate your knowledge. As an aborigine from West Virginia, I'm not overly endowed in either Phisics or, "Snake Handling". While I do like asking questions about both, if I should outwear my welcome, just say scram! I've already been run out of W.V.

But on the subject, I worry about Pandoras box. You know, the one sitting on her dresser?? Should we go so far so quickly? And then, just how far do we go before someone or something gets hurt?

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Thanks JohnB. Appreciate your knowledge. As an aborigine from West Virginia, I'm not overly endowed in either Phisics or, "Snake Handling". While I do like asking questions about both, if I should outwear my welcome, just say scram! I've already been run out of W.V.

But on the subject, I worry about Pandoras box. You know, the one sitting on her dresser?? Should we go so far so quickly? And then, just how far do we go before someone or something gets hurt?

 

Into this life we are let, first only asking; then to our fame.

Oh! so quickly do we leave, taking not; but as we came.

[JohnB]

timo, you could be right. I'm not a physicist and I am operating under the assumption that normal matter is classified as baryonic. It appears to make up about 5% of the Universe.

 

My point was simply that once we find (assuming we do) the ultimate particle of normal matter, there is still a lot to find.

 

rigney, the best way to find things out and find out what people think is to ask. Nobody here will have a go at you for asking questions, that is what we all do, all the time. The big thing is to be willing to put a bit of time into things.

 

Sometimes some background information is needed to understand a topic, so if you ask a question it might be suggested that you read certain links. Take the time to read the recommended articles. If you still don't "get it", then ask again and try to be clear about where the trouble is. More articles will probably be suggested to help you through as well as advice and explanations. Asking questions is fine, but in return we ask that people listen to the answers.

 

We have some brilliant people here, just trying to understand what some of them do makes my brain start dribble out my ears. They are more educated than I am and are a hell of a lot smarter, but not once have I ever seen anybody "pull rank" or treat people poorly because they are less educated.

 

if I should outwear my welcome, just say scram! I've already been run out of W.V.

Nobody will tell you to scram. BTW, what is W.V.?

 

The Pandoras Box argument has always been there. When Europeans were exploring the world in ships, there were fears that the crews might bring back strange and dreadful diseases. Nobody can tell with certainty the final outcome of any discovery, but if we don't look, then we will never discover anything.

 

Carried to its logical conclusion, if we had used that idea too much in the past, we would all still be sitting around a fire wearing animal skins and not having this discussion.

 

I'm here because Lt. James Cook came to the Southern Ocean to observe the transit of Venus and to see if the east coast of Terra Australis was as inhospitable as the west coast. He found verdant land and colonies were set up.

 

North America was colonized by Europeans because Columbus was looking for a short cut to India.

 

The Clovis people went to America because somebody wondered about the land to the east.

 

While we can't guarantee the outcome, if we never look, we will never find. (And there will always be seemingly good reasons to "Put it off until a later date.")

 

Cheers.

[rigney]

Thanks again JohnB. I'm not trying to circumvent questions or answers at all. But my entire philosophy is based on ignorance, but concept and reason. Like you, I know there is briliance out there that rattles my brain. And other than the concept of what baryonic means, I'm dead in the water. Can I just ask a few questions for a while? Physics is far beyond my means.

By the way, W.V. means "West Virginia", and five generations of us Rigney hicks!

[Severian]

Baryonic matter is any matter made up from quarks.

[Pangloss]

Can I just ask a few questions for a while?

 

Absolutely.

[JohnB]

Thanks severian. So would it be correct to say that "normal" matter is baryonic and "dark" matter is probably non-baryonic?

[Severian]

Thanks severian. So would it be correct to say that "normal" matter is baryonic and "dark" matter is probably non-baryonic?

 

Yes, that is how it is normally phrased. Normal matter can also be non-baryonic, for example the electron, but that takes up a relatively small amount of the mass of the universe.