Breast feeding adults

[Moontanman]

So technically since I have partaken of my wifes breast milk when I have sex with her now it's incest.

[Double K]

So technically since I have partaken of my wifes breast milk when I have sex with her now it's incest.

 

That would only be the case if you married your sister, mother or close cousin.

Anything after 2nd cousin is considered (legally) acceptable.

[Moontanman]

That would only be the case if you married your sister, mother or close cousin.

Anything after 2nd cousin is considered (legally) acceptable.

 

Isn't the point of sharing the breast milk that it makes anyone you share it with technically a relative?

[Double K]

Isn't the point of sharing the breast milk that it makes anyone you share it with technically a relative?

 

Regardless, unless it somehow makes you a direct descendant / blood relative, its not considered incest.

 

http://marriage.about.com/od/marriagelaws/g/incest.htm

In the United States, every state prohibits you from marrying any of your ancestors or descendants including your brother, your sister, your half-brother, your half-sister, your aunt, your uncle, your niece, your nephew, your mother, your father, your grandmother, your grandfather, your great-grandmother, your great-grandfather, your child, your grandchild, or your great-grandchild.

 

Some states have additional prohibitions concerning marrying your adoptive brother, your adoptive sister, your step-mother, your step-father, your former step-mother, your former step-father, your mother-in-law, your father-in-law, your former mother-in-law, your former father-in-law, your adoptive mother, your adoptive father, your former adoptive mother, your former adoptive father, your step-child, your former step-child, your adoptive child, your former adoptive child, your daughter-in-law, your son-in-law, your former daughter-in-law, your former son-in-law, or your cousins.

[Moontanman]

This has nothing to do with marriage or incest in the USA, it has to do with Islamic law and how breast feeding makes you technically a relative in that law.

[Double K]

I know that. But being "technically" a relative doesnt make it incestuous, is my point.

[Phi for All]

Ok I think you've mixed up the terms incest with adultery then, hence the confusion.

No. The Islamic fatwah involved calls for men to partake of the breast milk of non-related women they see on a regular basis to make it allowable for them to see her unveiled. Suckling like this technically makes them related. My point was that if they had sex with her after that, it would make it technically incest instead of adultery, but adultery is already covered by the 9th Commandment, and would seem to be the more heavyweight crime.

 

That would only be the case if you married your sister, mother or close cousin.

Anything after 2nd cousin is considered (legally) acceptable.

Not in Islamic law. First cousin marriage isn't forbidden.

 

Regardless, unless it somehow makes you a direct descendant / blood relative, its not considered incest.

 

http://marriage.about.com/od/marriagelaws/g/incest.htm

In the United States, every state prohibits you from marrying any of your ancestors or descendants including your brother, your sister, your half-brother, your half-sister, your aunt, your uncle, your niece, your nephew, your mother, your father, your grandmother, your grandfather, your great-grandmother, your great-grandfather, your child, your grandchild, or your great-grandchild.

 

Some states have additional prohibitions concerning marrying your adoptive brother, your adoptive sister, your step-mother, your step-father, your former step-mother, your former step-father, your mother-in-law, your father-in-law, your former mother-in-law, your former father-in-law, your adoptive mother, your adoptive father, your former adoptive mother, your former adoptive father, your step-child, your former step-child, your adoptive child, your former adoptive child, your daughter-in-law, your son-in-law, your former daughter-in-law, your former son-in-law, or your cousins.

I don't understand why you're quoting US law when we're talking about an Islamic fatwah that has been issued. It seems to be an obfuscation.

 

I know that. But being "technically" a relative doesnt make it incestuous, is my point.

It's enough to allow you to see a woman unveiled, which is only allowed to close family members. I don't know for sure on this part, but I think it very likely that having sex with a close family member would be considered incest under Sharia law.

[Mr Skeptic]

No. The Islamic fatwah involved calls for men to partake of the breast milk of non-related women they see on a regular basis to make it allowable for them to see her unveiled. Suckling like this technically makes them related. My point was that if they had sex with her after that, it would make it technically incest instead of adultery, but adultery is already covered by the 9th Commandment, and would seem to be the more heavyweight crime.

 

It would be technical incest, and adultery.

[Phi for All]

It would be technical incest, and adultery.

That's the way I see it.

 

I just can't figure why they need breast feeding to make someone a close enough relative to see a woman unveiled. You're already making a special dispensation to allow them family status, so why not make the dispensation dependent on something less disturbing and controversial than drinking breast milk?

[Moontanman]

My take on this that it's religion, religious laws don't have to make sense, you just have to follow them to keep from being punished. I wonder what the punishment would be for the people who commit both incest and adultery? In a real way I think this the religious leaders trying to do something good within the confines of their religious writings and failing miserably.

 

The idea that seeing a woman unveiled is wrong stems from the sexually suppressive dogma involved, men can't control themselves around women so the women must be protected and in the process women are subjugated even more by the idea of their own sexuality cannot be allowed to influence men who have no self control...

 

To me the idea that men go nuts at the site of a woman is crazy to start with, I am a nudist, I've spent lots of time naked in mixed company, I've been asked many times by non nudists how i can stand to be around nude women and not just jump up and try to have sex with all of them, the non nudist often says he could not be around nudity with out loosing control, it's total BS of course, after the first few minutes of being nude you realize very quickly that nudity does not equal sex.

 

IMHO it's a huge crock of denial

[Phi for All]

The idea that seeing a woman unveiled is wrong stems from the sexually suppressive dogma involved, men can't control themselves around women so the women must be protected and in the process women are subjugated even more by the idea of their own sexuality cannot be allowed to influence men who have no self control...

Actually, seeing a woman veiled head to toe makes me extremely curious. And like most human males, I hate it when I'm denied access to anything. Just makes me want it more.

 

To me the idea that men go nuts at the site of a woman is crazy to start with, I am a nudist, I've spent lots of time naked in mixed company, I've been asked many times by non nudists how i can stand to be around nude women and not just jump up and try to have sex with all of them, the non nudist often says he could not be around nudity with out loosing control, it's total BS of course, after the first few minutes of being nude you realize very quickly that nudity does not equal sex.

I agree. Ever see the movie Rapa Nui? It's got an early Polynesian theme and everyone goes around topless. It's very... titillating at first, but halfway through you get used to it. It just seems normal. Which it is, I suppose.

[StringJunky]

My take on this that it's religion, religious laws don't have to make sense, you just have to follow them to keep from being punished. I wonder what the punishment would be for the people who commit both incest and adultery? In a real way I think this the religious leaders trying to do something good within the confines of their religious writings and failing miserably.

 

:

 

The thing with the Saudis is that they follow the Koran to the letter and spirit and that's why they end up with these ridiculous ideas trying to modernise without compromising the Koranic ideal.

 

Another farcical situation they have due to their strict segregation of men and women disallowing casual liaisons and bearing in mind homosexuality can be punishible by death is that they have more men practicing homosexuality than there are actual homosexuals because of their need to find sexual expression! Duh! The authorities turn a blind eye to this practice as long as no one flaunts it openly...or else they'll lose their head.

[Double K]

It would be technical incest, and adultery.

 

Ok, I think I've been misunderstood here.

The reason I linked US law is to show that the basis of "incest" requires a blood relation. In some states they also include 'step' family but the original definition of incest is that of with a blood relation. Drinking someones breast milk does not make you related, not even technically!

 

Secondly, why is dispensing or partaking of breast milk being even considered adulterous? It's not even close. If I drank it during a sex act, then yes but otherwise it's a natural thing, and there are many ways to express milk without any physical contact between expresser and expressee what-so-ever required.

 

This is a womens rights issue that has been fought for even in todays society the right to breast feed in public (and yes thats a different topic) but from the comments here (and this law) it appears for some reason that a perfectly natural and normal occurance has been demonised to make it something that it absolutely is not. I do agree its a bit strange, but, that's social conditioning because mothers milk is normal. In fact it's full of important anti-bodies, is far more digestible than cow/goat/sheep/soy milk requires no packaging what so ever, no processing what so ever...in a society focussed on sustainability this 'product' is a sure fire winner.

[Moontanman]

Ok, I think I've been misunderstood here.

The reason I linked US law is to show that the basis of "incest" requires a blood relation. In some states they also include 'step' family but the original definition of incest is that of with a blood relation. Drinking someones breast milk does not make you related, not even technically!

 

The point is that these clerics evidently disagree with you.

 

Secondly, why is dispensing or partaking of breast milk being even considered adulterous? It's not even close. If I drank it during a sex act, then yes but otherwise it's a natural thing, and there are many ways to express milk without any physical contact between expresser and expressee what-so-ever required.

 

No one has said anything about drinking breast milk being adulterous, did you read the original link at all? I've drank it, it tastes like vanilla ice cream, i prefer it direct from the spout

 

This is a womens rights issue that has been fought for even in todays society the right to breast feed in public (and yes thats a different topic) but from the comments here (and this law) it appears for some reason that a perfectly natural and normal occurance has been demonised to make it something that it absolutely is not. I do agree its a bit strange, but, that's social conditioning because mothers milk is normal. In fact it's full of important anti-bodies, is far more digestible than cow/goat/sheep/soy milk requires no packaging what so ever, no processing what so ever...in a society focussed on sustainability this 'product' is a sure fire winner.

 

This has nothing what so ever to do wih the OP.

[Mr Skeptic]

Ok, I think I've been misunderstood here.

The reason I linked US law is to show that the basis of "incest" requires a blood relation. In some states they also include 'step' family but the original definition of incest is that of with a blood relation. Drinking someones breast milk does not make you related, not even technically!

 

Well, you've largely misunderstood the reason for drinking the breast milk. Think about it: who normally drinks breast milk? Your children and adopted children (and possibly also children from a close friend of the family). They're also going to be over a decade younger. This is why the Sharia law would consider people who drank someone's breast milk family, which means they can see the woman unvailed and be alone with her. It also means that if they had sex with her it would be considered incest or technical incest, either due to blood relation or from being considered relatives.

 

This would allow the women to be alone with their friends while technically following the outdated laws. It's also a really amusing idea and goes very much against the spirit of said law.

[Phi for All]

Ok, I think I've been misunderstood here.

The reason I linked US law is to show that the basis of "incest" requires a blood relation. In some states they also include 'step' family but the original definition of incest is that of with a blood relation.

But US law does NOT form the basis for anything in Saudi Arabia.

 

Drinking someones breast milk does not make you related, not even technically!

From the article in the OP (which I'm sure you read first, so this is just a reminder):

A fatwa issued recently about adult breast-feeding

to establish "maternal relations"

[emphasis mine] and preclude the possibility of sexual contact has resulted in a week's worth of newspaper headlines in Saudi Arabia.

So the fatwah says drinking a woman's breast milk establishes a maternal relation to keep a man from having an incestual encounter with her. This is what we've been discussing.

 

Secondly, why is dispensing or partaking of breast milk being even considered adulterous?

In the thread I'm following, no one said it was.

 

I did wonder why the fatwah was needed to establish a maternal relationship when there was already a major commandment against adultery that's supposed to keep men from having sex with married women. Why you confused the breast milk with adultery must be my fault then. I thought I was pretty clear.

[Double K]

Well, you've largely misunderstood the reason for drinking the breast milk. Think about it: who normally drinks breast milk? Your children and adopted children (and possibly also children from a close friend of the family). They're also going to be over a decade younger. This is why the Sharia law would consider people who drank someone's breast milk family, which means they can see the woman unvailed and be alone with her. It also means that if they had sex with her it would be considered incest or technical incest, either due to blood relation or from being considered relatives.

 

This would allow the women to be alone with their friends while technically following the outdated laws. It's also a really amusing idea and goes very much against the spirit of said law.

 

Haha, no sorry...I do know what breast milk is for and who usually drinks it. I just fail to see how it makes you related. Yes, the idea of the law is to create a loophole around the existing outdated system, it's just a very very strange way of doing it. I see the point that if you are 'technically' related then something happens you are 'technically' performing incest however I don't agree as the relationship just isn't close enough or any direct line of descendancy there to rule that.

 

Did I miss in the original link somewhere, that it stated the law would consider it an act of incest or was that something that another poster brought up? (no sarcasm intended, I don't recall reading it other than on the thread that's all) I just dispute the fact that drinking breast milk causes enough of a relationship to cause an incestual connection should something further develop.

 

At minimum I am willing to concede that the whole concept is a little bit freaky!

[Phi for All]

Did I miss in the original link somewhere, that it stated the law would consider it an act of incest or was that something that another poster brought up?

A fatwa issued recently about adult breast-feeding

to establish "maternal relations"

and

preclude the possibility of sexual contact

[emphasis mine] has resulted in a week's worth of newspaper headlines in Saudi Arabia.

 

It seems the Saudis have no problem assuming a man wouldn't have sexual relations with a married woman from whom he'd obtained breast milk because of an incestuous maternal relationship, but they're willing to force a man to suckle from her because they're afraid if he sees her unveiled, despite his already close relationship with the family, he will try to commit adultery with her.

[Double K]

It sure is bizarre!

Yes ok I concede the point now that you could derive that from the law.

However psychological based studies have shown there to be benefit in "maternal relations" and prosocial behaviours. I don't see that breast feeding from another man's wife promotes a maternal relationship though! However - are they demanding direct breast feeding, or just that they consume the milk? There's a huge difference between suckling and just drinking expressed milk...on many levels!

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/3363283k7x708537/

Abstract Studies document that parents serve as children’s primary socialization agents, particularly for moral development and prosocial behavior; however, less is known regarding parental influences on prosocial outcomes during the transition to adulthood. The purpose of this study was to investigate how mother–child relationship quality was related to prosocial tendencies via emerging adults’ regulation of prosocial values. Participants included 228 undergraduate students (ranging from 18 to 25 years; 90% European American) and their mothers (ranging from 38 to 59 years) from four locations across the United States. Path analyses using structural equation modeling revealed that mother–child relationship quality was related to emerging adults’ regulation of prosocial values, which was, in turn, related to emerging adults’ prosocial tendencies. Specifically, emerging adults who reported higher levels of internal regulation of prosocial values were more likely to report prosocial tendencies that de-emphasized themselves, and were less likely to report prosocial tendencies for the approval of others.