Taxes and Stealing

[pioneer]

Is taxation a form of stealing?

 

Here is a scenario. I am walking down the street and see a poor woman who needs food. To help her, I strong arm the first person I see, and take his wallet and give it to the woman. Is this stealing?

 

Say there is a crowd of people there, cheering me on to strong arm the man to get his wallet, to give to the woman, is that stealing?

 

This is how taxation works. The group agrees to let an agent forcefully take what it did not earn, nor what belongs to it. It has all the elements of stealing. Does that mean those who like to tax the most are the biggest thieves?

 

Let us extrapolate the scenario even further. The group agrees for me to strong arm the man against his choice, since the woman is in need. But rather than just take what he has in his wallet, we also decide to take his ID and go to the bank and borrow money in his name. He has to pay this all back. Is this stealing?

 

The alternatives to these stealing scenarios; the man sees the poor woman in need and reaches into his own pocket and gives her some money. Is that stealing? Or the crowd cheers the man on, so he reaches into his own pocket to give to the poor woman. Is that stealing?

 

The question is, how could taxation become altered so it takes on less characteristics associated with thieves and stealing?

 

One way to begin, is to not allow the thieves to escalate their stealing behavior. They may like the shake-down and might make up excuses just for the fun of the shakedown. The poor lady needs her nails done, so we need to mug those people over there.

 

Balance budgets are good since it means the thieve can still take what is in your wallet, but he can't steal from your future. If he does that, you become his slave or servant, until you pay off the debt he created. This is no different than a third world person in a sweat shop, who has to work as a slave for years, until they buy back their freedom.

 

Once the thieves are restricted to your wallet, here and now; anti-slavery, we then shift their stealing behavior more toward charity. One preliminary way to do this is to give each person a say as to where their tax dollars go. It is like the thief steals your wallet, and then asks you where should he spend your money? You may not like being mugged, but at least it almost feels like a version of charity. You can't depend on the thief to read your mind. He may like the shakedown.

 

One way to implement this; at tax time, once your taxes are figured out; the thief picks your wallet, he outlines out all the places he might spend your money. After looking at his list, you decide in which piles your stolen money goes. Liberals like social policies so they can request that their stolen money goes into those piles. The conservatives like military and business so they can request their stolen money goes in those piles. The thief steals but the victims set the budget for the thieves.

[Mr Skeptic]

Taxation is a form of group cooperation for the greater good. The non-optional aspect is due to the fact that people are greedy cheapskates (see the free rider problem), and would not be willing to pay for the stuff if they could get away with everyone except them paying it. However, since nearly everyone will think this way, you'd end up with only good people paying.

[JohnB]

Stealing??

 

You are too kind. It's more like "Demanding money with menaces".

[Double K]

There is a huge difference between the law, and morals.

 

Law is:

a. The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law.

b. The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system:

 

Its connotation is often in the term "Rule of Law".

 

The rule of law is an ancient ideal, and was discussed by Ancient Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle around 350 BCE. Plato wrote:

 

Where the law is subject to some other authority and has none of its own, the collapse of the state, in my view, is not far off; but if law is the master of the government and the government is its slave, then the situation is full of promise and men enjoy all the blessings that the gods shower on a state.[6]

 

Likewise, Aristotle endorsed the rule of law, writing that "law should govern", and those in power should be "servants of the laws."[7] The ancient concept of rule of law is to be distinguished from rule by law, according to political science professor Li Shuguang: "The difference....is that under the rule of law the law is preeminent and can serve as a check against the abuse of power. Under rule by law, the law can serve as a mere tool for a government that suppresses in a legalistic fashion."

 

 

Morality refers to a code of conduct in matters of right and wrong. Morals may be created by and defined by one's society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. Some moral principles may be universally applicable as well.

Morality may also be defined as synonymous with ethics.

 

 

I believe aiding someone in need would fall under morality, and yet assaulting someone to take the money would fall under law... You can't really blend the 2, as in my opinion, the law is far removed from morality these days.

 

Also taxation isn't just about stealing money.

The 'idea' is to input this back into the community in infrastructure, and other projects that will benefit the entire community and not just the priveledged few. Unfortunately this rarely happens.

It's also my belief that a government running a surplus should be questioned, although it's a good idea to have some stashed away for an unforseen problem, it also means tax is too high or not enough is being reinvested into the community.

[ydoaPs]

If you don't like taxes, feel free to move to a place that doesn't have them. However, I suspect you might rather have socialized law enforcement and emergency response. Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to save your house if you relied upon a privatized fire department?

 

It's not stealing; it's paying for a service(well, several services). Due to the rediculously high prices that would ensue should certain services be privatized and the fact that most citizens rarely use said services, the way the most people benefit is a pool system. However, we cannot rely upon our neighbors to give to this pool of the goodness of their hearts, so we make contribution mandatory.

 

Could we make contribution to the pool optional and have those not contributing pay the privatized price? Yes, but I doubt many would choose to go bankrupt after being burgalurized.

[Mr Skeptic]

Could we make contribution to the pool optional and have those not contributing pay the privatized price? Yes, but I doubt many would choose to go bankrupt after being burgalurized.

 

What do you mean, go bankrupt? Are you suggesting that the government steal the debt money that the creditor is owed?

[ydoaPs]

Are you suggesting the user of the service not pay the fees?

[The Bear's Key]

Is calling taxes stealing a form of deceit?

 

The OP's premise is flawed in many ways. 1. It originates from slick politicians. 2. Taxes aren't collected from random people here and there. 3. If stealing really happens it'd depend both on the people watching over the funds and the special interests' control.

 

A nation's bills have to be paid. Taxes are a group effort, it's not stealing by government.

 

However since theft is usually done in secrecy, then any misdirection/lies in how funds are spent or taxes collected would be more like stealing.

 

So why not concentrate on that aspect? (worth a mention: the Constitution specifically allows our government to tax)

[Mr Skeptic]

Are you suggesting the user of the service not pay the fees?

 

Creditors don't need the government, ask any illegal loan shark.

[Edtharan]

Taxation is no more stealing than a shop owner asking for money for the food you eat.

 

the government provides services (or at least it should). This comes in the form of protection (police, army, emergency services, etc), infrestructure (roads, telecomunications, electricity, etc - or the oversight to ensure fair delivery of these) and so forth. This is what you pay the taxes for.

 

The threat (or fins or imprisonment) for failing to pay taxes is to ensure that people don't free ride and let other people pay for the things they use. This is similar to when you don't invite a friend out to drinks when they never shout a round when it is their turn.