fafalone Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 If you believe we should not go to war with Iraq, you need to adequately address all of the following issues: Iraqii people are being oppressed and denied basic freedoms by Saddam Iraq acknowledged having large amounts of chemical and biological weapons at the end of the Gulf War, he lost that war and accepted a deal to remain in power if he destroyed them. However, he has not accounted for what happened to these weapons in any way. Mobile facilities for developing weapons of mass destruction have not been accounted for. Resolution 1441 required a currently accurate account of what happened to all of these; however the report contained no new information. Weapons inspectors have expressed disatisfaction with the cooperation of Iraq; Iraq is not offering any guidance in determining the fate of its previously acknowledged weapons of mass destruction. Weapons inspectors are not being permitted to interview scientists in private. Iraq has sought to acquire Uranium. Iraq continually opens fire on coalition aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone. Each year, Iraqii anti-aircraft weapons open fire on American, British, and other aircraft over 100 times. These attacks continue in spite of the new resolution. Iraq will not allow U2 spy planes in its airspace to assist weapons inspectors in their search. New evidence has began to establish a link between Iraq and the Al-Qaeda network. These are clearly not the actions of a government with any respect for the world community. Iraq's continued deception of evidence of a growing threat, and we should not wait until Iraq strikes first, since their weapons ability could cause a disaster far worse than Semptember 11th; you would think that would teach us the value of not waiting until something terrible happens before taking action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Go to war with Iraq all you like. Just go to war with other places with a similar record [*cough*Saudi Arabia*cough*] as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PogoC7 Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 People protest the war and they don't even know whats going on. Over the years Punk music and revolution has become so main stream and diluted that most people oppoes the presidency on everything it does. Too many people today take the advice of Bono (U2; wondering when the anit-war song should be comeing out) or just think it's cool to go aginst the government. I am a real rebal, not a hollywood figure of one. I know Iraq is a threat and to all those people who cry about the blood shed which will come from the war. I just say, "Look at the last war". More civilians were killed by Saddam (the real evil). When people do not have the right to speak their minds; that is a violation of human and moral rights. P.S.*How can I post a new disscussion (one on hydrogen feul cells or government stimulas in Afganistan)* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by PogoC7 P.S.*How can I post a new disscussion (one on hydrogen feul cells or government stimulas in Afganistan)* Go to the forum page and click "Create New Thread" at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by fafalone (1) Omissions in the declaration WERE made. Iraq HAS NOT cooperated fully. Both conditions of material breach are met. (2) The Iraqii statement was not currently accurate. First off all, the warheads they "forgot about" were not listed in the supposedly complete report, second of all, the question has still not been answered, and is required to be answered, of what happened to their stockpiles. (3) A resolution calling for action has been drafted and will soon be presented. (4) Refusing to provide information as to if their stockpiles were destroyed is a PRESENT breach. (5) Yes, it can. (6) Where's the justice in letting the injustice of a maniac dictator continue to oppress the Iraqii people? (7) It is even less advisable, for the safety and security of Iraqii people as well as our nations, to allow him to stay in power with his unaccountedfor biological and chemical weapons. Firstly I should make it clearer that I believe resolution 1441 to have been absolutely idiotically worded even if you agree with the essential idea that iraqi non-cooperation or non-disarmament is grounds for war. Here I am taking issue with the idea that resolution 1441 authorises war, or indeed can ever unambiguously do anything unless the weapons inspectors manage to find current weapons AND fail to recieve cooperation. Even then another resolution is probably needed. Even if you believe the UN constitutes a valid international authority, it is not at clear it can (let alone has) mandate individual Iraqi scientists to leave the country for interview. As a letter to the Independent from a british weapons researcher today shows, one might not expect such scientists to cooperate with a hostile power. This undermines claims of non-cooperation. Blix's report did not demonstrate any material breach, altho it did indicate areas of possible or probable breach. And bear in mind the atomic inspectors say they have received good coooperation. (1) Not found to be false by the weapons inspectorate, but by the allegations of british and american politicians. Note that substantive evidence has not been released, even to the UN, on this. (2) Those weren't full warheads they were casings, which the Iraqis are claiming were de-weaponised. As I have explained the wording of the declaration therefore allows them to be exempted. (3) Fine, I'll probably object to that when it appears. (4) Where does the resolution stipulate details of past weapons programmes or disposal programmes? It's possible I misread it. (5) Conceded, although you could have provided some evidence (e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,565882,00.html ). I shouldn't have to back up your statements for you. (6) I'm not confident we're all that interested in 'justice' considering our record in the region (for example, supporting what you call a "maniac dictator"). And, as some people have mentioned, there is the issue of consistency. (7) I have dealt with issues of strategic logic already. No one has even bothered to try to counter my argument or its basis. P.S. I'm only questioning the proposed basis of the war; I'm not yet decided on whether it's ultimately justified. My principle concern is how much damage this sort of thing does in the long term, and its effect on how we conduct international affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by PogoC7 I am a real rebal. I know Iraq is a threat. threat to what? world peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Originally posted by Giles (1) Not found to be false by the weapons inspectorate, but by the allegations of british and american politicians. Note that substantive evidence has not been released, even to the UN, on this. (2) Those weren't full warheads they were casings, which the Iraqis are claiming were de-weaponised. As I have explained the wording of the declaration therefore allows them to be exempted. (3) Fine, I'll probably object to that when it appears. (4) Where does the resolution stipulate details of past weapons programmes or disposal programmes? It's possible I misread it. (5) Conceded, although you could have provided some evidence (e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,565882,00.html ). I shouldn't have to back up your statements for you. (6) I'm not confident we're all that interested in 'justice' considering our record in the region (for example, supporting what you call a "maniac dictator"). And, as some people have mentioned, there is the issue of consistency. (7) I have dealt with issues of strategic logic already. No one has even bothered to try to counter my argument or its basis. P.S. I'm only questioning the proposed basis of the war; I'm not yet decided on whether it's ultimately justified. My principle concern is how much damage this sort of thing does in the long term, and its effect on how we conduct international affairs. (1) The warheads they found were not declared in the report. They "forgot" about them. Ok. (2) It has been made clear by UN members that these warheads should have been declared. (3) It is unlikely the a security council member will use a veto, even if they oppose it. (4) The declaration required them to account for what happened to the weapons that they had. They did not do this. (6) No other unstable state that has aspirations of domination has the weapons of mass destructions capabilities that Iraq does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matzi Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by fafalone (1) The warheads they found were not declared in the report. They "forgot" about them. Ok.[...] Stuff like that happens in 12 years... Iraqii people are being oppressed and denied basic freedoms by Saddam Seen in the fanatic demonstrations against the US politics by them.... By the way, your country does certainly as well has weapons predicted to be in possession of Iraq. Thus you are - according to your own politics - a threat. So imagine, would you mention every single weapon in such a report? Would you allow others to search your whole country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Weak old man, armed with pollitical sodomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 What the hell is political sodomy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Matzi By the way, your country does certainly as well has weapons predicted to be in possession of Iraq. Thus you are - according to your own politics - a threat. So imagine, would you mention every single weapon in such a report? Would you allow others to search your whole country? Would you omit thousands and thousands of weapons with an imminent threat of force against you if you had any desire to avoid war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PogoC7 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The U.S. is not a war fighting country. They are a peace keeping country. Eventually, once the United States become more aggresive towards Iraq (in the next two weeks), Iraq will start showing more and more cooperation. I don't think we are going to war, but if we are; I'm happy I live here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I strongly doubt Iraq is all of a sudden going to start cooperating after over a decade of deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PogoC7 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 A decade of no political pressure. One of four thing can happen. Emunity - Saddam and top officials take a perminate vacation. War - Saddam gets his ass beat and DIES Resolution - Saddam starts to cooperate because he's reached the end of the rope. Junto - Some top Iraqii offical is sick Saddam's toying with his own country and overthrows Saddam (military takeover). After the last war; do the Iraqii soldiers want to fight another. Esspecially after they all surrendered or died. I might not be that fresh on our head, but the Gulf War is in theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by fafalone (1) The warheads they found were not declared in the report. They "forgot" about them. Ok. (2) It has been made clear by UN members that these warheads should have been declared. (3) It is unlikely the a security council member will use a veto, even if they oppose it. (4) The declaration required them to account for what happened to the weapons that they had. They did not do this. (6) No other unstable state that has aspirations of domination has the weapons of mass destructions capabilities that Iraq does. (1) I have already explained that the de-weaponised warheads need not have been included, as the orginal wording of the resolution was not clear enough. (2) Yes, after the event. Iraq can hardly be expected to be clairvoyent. (3) I know. Because of realpolitik. I'm not voicing opposition on that basis. (4) I didn't ask you to reassert your statement, I asked you show me where the UN had stated it. I linked you to the text of the resolution, so it shouldn't be that hard if it's there. (6) Iraq isn't unstable and, while it may have aspirations of domination, doesn't intend to act on them on the present evidence. And we don't even know they have WMD capabilities. Anyway, pakistan is an obvious counter-example; recent military coup, they do have nukes, and they want to control kashmir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by PogoC7 The U.S. is not a war fighting country. They are a peace keeping country. Eventually, once the United States become more aggresive towards Iraq (in the next two weeks), Iraq will start showing more and more cooperation. I don't think we are going to war, but if we are; I'm happy I live here. I turned on tv a week ago, and saw an Iraq woman teaching a 10 years old (aprox) how to reload an ak 47, and you are saying they will cooperate ? , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Edward Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Adam tv take a peek in the dictionary at the word 'propaganda' ... you might learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PogoC7 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Babies dressed as terrorists in Palistin. Distroy the youth!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 You don't even live in the U.S. , you should remain silent and opinionless, you don't understand the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 (skeptical edward) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fafalone Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 1) Ok, but where's the evidence that the thousands of other warheads not accounted for have been deweaponised? There is none, Iraq continually refuses to account for them. 2) Iraq was required to account for what happened to their chemical weapons, therefore the deweaponisation should have been in their report. Furthermore, the warheads had been placed in the facility where they were found in only the past few years. 6) So a country where the northern groups and southern groups both want to overthrow the central group is stable. Uh huh. And Pakistan doesn't have an avowed hatred of the United States. Originally posted by Giles (1) I have already explained that the de-weaponised warheads need not have been included, as the orginal wording of the resolution was not clear enough. (2) Yes, after the event. Iraq can hardly be expected to be clairvoyent. (3) I know. Because of realpolitik. I'm not voicing opposition on that basis. (4) I didn't ask you to reassert your statement, I asked you show me where the UN had stated it. I linked you to the text of the resolution, so it shouldn't be that hard if it's there. (6) Iraq isn't unstable and, while it may have aspirations of domination, doesn't intend to act on them on the present evidence. And we don't even know they have WMD capabilities. Anyway, pakistan is an obvious counter-example; recent military coup, they do have nukes, and they want to control kashmir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Originally posted by Adam You don't even live in the U.S. , you should remain silent and opinionless, you don't understand the situation. 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fafalone Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Adam, you live in the US and still don't understand anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 1) I agree that they continually refuse to account for them. The problem is that, legally, they have not been bound to reveal them in order to avert war (or 'serious conseqeunces'). 2) But not by this resolution, which stipulates that previous UN resolutions are not binding with respect to the consequences of it. 6) Despite the fact that the IRA want to cede from the UK, they do not pose a threat to the stability of our government. And nor do the Kurds pose a serious threat to Hussain's control of the rest of iraq (pending further deterioration of his power at our hands). And with respect to external action, Iraq certainly is stable, due to western intervention. I agree, pakistan's government is western-friendly, but it is at risk from fundamentalist and/or anti-western tendencies in parts of its population - especially given its instability. Do you remember the TV footage of pakistanis cheering the 9/11 attacks? (I assume it was reported in your country.) Originally posted by fafalone 1) Ok, but where's the evidence that the thousands of other warheads not accounted for have been deweaponised? There is none, Iraq continually refuses to account for them. 2) Iraq was required to account for what happened to their chemical weapons, therefore the deweaponisation should have been in their report. Furthermore, the warheads had been placed in the facility where they were found in only the past few years. 6) So a country where the northern groups and southern groups both want to overthrow the central group is stable. Uh huh. And Pakistan doesn't have an avowed hatred of the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aman Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 If the Palestinians could get rid of Arafat and get decent leadership, there might finally be peace. The peoples have gotten along before. Remember what 1 spoon of anthrax did to the US for months. Imagine kilos and then try to think of saddam as somebody we can just give more and more time. He needs to be removed yesterday. Just aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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