insects' cognitive ability

[Anura]

Could it be possible that some insects have religion?

[cypress]

I don't see how one could asses if that were possible. In order for something to be possible one would need a plausible mechanism or analog. Lacking both, we cannot say it is possible.

 

In other words, it is not true that "anything is possible". There are quite clearly things that are not possible due to mutually exclusive constraints. Nice try....

[Moontanman]

Of course bees and wasps worship their queen with chemicals and by being celebate.... Just kidding.... I agree that the mechanisms are absent for this to happen.

[iNow]

Could it be possible that some insects have religion?

Yes, it is possible, but that possibility depends entirely on how you choose to define the word "religion" when responding.

[ewmon]

:D

[skyhook]

Any Sun worshiping insects ?

[Anura]

I guess what I really meant to say was that I dont think we can tell what goes on in another organisms brains. PLease tell me if im wrong here?

[Fuzzwood]

I guess what I really meant to say was that I dont think we can tell what goes on in another organisms brains. PLease tell me if im wrong here?

 

Yeah you can read out the electrical impulses alright. But how they are processed in every and any organism's brain? I don't think so.

[cypress]

Yes, it is possible, but that possibility depends entirely on how you choose to define the word "religion" when responding.

 

So if something is not possible, make it possible by redefining the term.... In other words move the goal post, nice. Is this acceptable science?

[insane_alien]

what inow is saying is that you need to have a strict definition of religion before you can say whether it is possible or not.

 

as no such definition exists(they all have fuzzy areas) it is impossible to come up with a meaningful answer.

 

definitions are very important in science as they are required to be exact and non-ambiguous. religious definitions on the otherhand tend to be not so strict and very very fuzzy. for instance, in christianity some people were made saints for 'miracles' that other people were burned at the stake for simply because the definition of both was fuzzy.

[iNow]

IA is quite right, Cypress. I don't know whether you've done so intentionally or not, but you've badly failed at comprehending and representing my actual point.

[cypress]

what inow is saying is that you need to have a strict definition of religion before you can say whether it is possible or not.

 

as no such definition exists(they all have fuzzy areas) it is impossible to come up with a meaningful answer.

 

No, I don't think so. If that was Inow's point, I rather think he would have stated it as you have, however your statement is simply a restatement of mine and since the OP's question was unambiguous, the meaning of religion in his sentence was also unambiguous. Inow was more likely being contrarian, taking exception to my description, despite his claim otherwise.

 

Even in your description, having restated my original point that the possibility cannot be assessed, differs from Inow where he stated that it indeed was possible depending on alternate definitions, thus contradicting my post and by extension yours.

[iNow]

No, I don't think so. If that was Inow's point, I rather think he would have stated it as you have,

 

Except, I already stated that I_A was correct, and said so BEFORE you made your response here. What's your problem?

[insane_alien]

all i said was that you first need to have an unambiguous definition of religion and that perhaps iNow worded his response poorley(it happens to everyone).

 

infact, he agreed with me.

 

seriously, give us an unambiguous definition of religion and we'll tell you, this isn't moving the goal posts, this is finding out where the goalposts are before you try to score.

[Mr Skeptic]

Insects aren't clever enough to have any of our religion, nor would they be able to communicate such an abstract concept. Of course depending on how religion is defined, they might have some sort of religion instinctively built-in. God save the queen bee!

[cypress]

Except, I already stated that I_A was correct, and said so BEFORE you made your response here. What's your problem?

 

Explained in the rest of my response. The part you excluded.

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Insects aren't clever enough to have any of our religion, nor would they be able to communicate such an abstract concept. Of course depending on how religion is defined, they might have some sort of religion instinctively built-in. God save the queen bee!

 

By any common definition, religion involves belief and/or faith and thus choice and these require cognition. Wouldn't a model based on instinct contradict the basic tenet of belief, faith and choice?

[Mr Skeptic]

By any common definition, religion involves belief and/or faith and thus choice and these require cognition. Wouldn't a model based on instinct contradict the basic tenet of belief, faith and choice?

 

Insects contain instinctive knowledge, and sometimes their knowledge contradicts the evidence (something they are probably too dumb to realize). Thus it would seem that insects would have unshakable faith in their beliefs. Choice is choice, instinctive or not -- ask people who did and didn't run away from a battle. So these elements are there. The question then, is what sort of beliefs constitute religious beliefs, and are those too abstract for an insect?

[Anura]

Is it possible that my question implies that we know what goes on in the mind of other oganisms? Anyway. I was watching something on tv and a doctor hooked up a person to a machine. His or her thoughts were then displayed on a video screen. Showing the thoughts of that person, That will never happen ever. Sort of like traveling half the speed of light. Pure science fiction. Im reading a book on the physiology of insects right now. So expect more questions considering that. Im new to science. But love the hell out of it. Thank you all for your responces.

[Schrodinger's cat]

It's true that the answer would largely depend upon how you define religion, but I don't think this would preclude coming up with a meaningful answer. You might say that religion is composed of not on just behavior, but also upon certain cognitive abilities, such as self-awareness--that you have to be aware of yourself as an individual in order to seek answers to existential questions. You could then design an experiment to test whether ants are self-aware. If the answer is no, then you might say that ants are not capable of true religion. You could then conclude that any behaviors that you observe that are similar to human religious practice is not indicative of ants practicing religion, though those behaviors would no doubt benefit the ant in some other way.

 

 

[Moontanman]

One word.... Sandkings... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandkings_(novelette) , I'm not sure if we can define religion but if insects have it then social insects have it more than we do. What is religion but a pattern of behavior that requires the individual to surrender to the gestalt of the leader, God is the ultimate leader....

[Ringer]

In terms of religion as a set of ritual actions insects could meet the standards at a bare minimum. But they don't have the ability to understand abstract concepts that religion is meant to explain. Also, religion almost always has some sort of scripture that defines it's rituals, rules, etc., and ants, or almost any other animal, has no way to convey that type of thing

[Moontanman]

In terms of religion as a set of ritual actions insects could meet the standards at a bare minimum. But they don't have the ability to understand abstract concepts that religion is meant to explain. Also, religion almost always has some sort of scripture that defines it's rituals, rules, etc., and ants, or almost any other animal, has no way to convey that type of thing

 

 

Insects communicate chemically there is no way for us to read their rituals, while if their religion might be passed down by word of chemical we cannot say it's not as real as ours.

[Ringer]

But their communication can only convey kin/non-kin, food, direction, etc. nothing in the realm of understanding existence which is exactly what religion is formed to do. And we can test what those chemicals do to the ants and what other animals, ants or otherwise, do while being introduced to the chemicals. As far as I know they don't have the cortical area that is associated with abstract thought or communication.

[Moontanman]

I tend to agree with you ringer but do we really know what insects communicate? Could they be hooked up chemically to the point of a hive mind, slow by the standards of our electrochemical minds but a mind none the less? have you ever opened up a honey bee hive and watched how they coordinate with your presence? i had bees and i tamed them, i could open the hive and put my hand among them with no aggressive response, it took me a couple of years to get them that way but they did seem to remember me from visit to visit and were much more hostile to others. of course this proves nothing but I think the possibility has to be considered.