Math and Music

[coquina]

I have learned that Dave plays trombone - I play flute. My mother was a very accomplished organist and could play 2 manuals, pedals, and change stops simultaneously. Where am I going with this?

 

How much does mathmatical abilitity enhance musical ability and vice-versa?

 

Think about it. You're sightreading - it's syncopated, you have to mentally compute the measure in advance to know how it will come out. If you're sight reading, and you're good at it, you're reading at least 4 measures ahead of what you're playing. Throw into the mix that the key signature and the time signature may be changing. It's challenging when you're dealing with one line of music.

 

I think the most amazing thing I ever say was my mom play the organ. She played for the local funeral home, you don't get a lot of opportunity to practice. She could simultaneously keep up with two manuals,treble and bass cleff, and a full set of pedals, she changed would reach up and change the stops from brass to woodwinds and not miss a beat, and - if necessary transpose the whole shooting match to another key. She could do this at the age of 95.

 

Obviously, she was certainly no dummy when it came to math - but she'd never been exposed to it's higher levels.

 

So much of music involves math - how many of you mathmaticians read music and play an instrument? How much do you feel that the two skills are interrelated?

 

If you play - do you play by rote, or are you able to wing it. I play by note - to me, someone who can fly by the seat of their pants is amazing.

 

Anybody want to comment?

[ydoaPs]

i usually read over and subdevide a peice before i play it for the first time.

[coquina]

Sometimes you have to do that - but if you can learn to look at the whole measure and see it as an equation, you're ahead of the game.

[ydoaPs]

uh, i used to play the trombone. i played it for 4 years

[Dapthar]

So much of music involves math - how many of you mathmaticians read music and play an instrument?

I wouldn't consider myself a Mathematician as of yet, but simply a student of Mathematics.

 

IRT: My only formal musical experience was learning to play the piano for a introductory music class (for a University liberal arts requirement), and my "skill" was nothing more than practice and rote memorization, to a level which was sufficient to earn a good grade. As soon as I left the class, I forgot essentially everything I learned in it, to the point where now, only a year later, I cannot read sheet music, or even remember basic finger positions. However, this may be due, in part, to the fact that I didn't have any non-academic desire to learn to play in the first place.

 

How much do you feel that the two skills are interrelated?

Not much more beyond the basic level that relates all endeavors to Mathematics, since, in my opinion, knowledge of anything beyond basic Mathematics doesn't help to improve one's musical talents to any significant degree. Sure, there is the subfield of Music Theory, however, from a Mathematical standpoint, it could be called "Sound Theory" with no theoretical changes to the established literature.

[matt grime]

The evidence for the link is anecdotal at best, if not apocryphal. One of my lecturers, when I was an undergrad, was a concert standard violinist. On the other hand, another was completely tone deaf.

Do you mean this on the basic academic level, for then the link ios probably the same as for any other pair of subjects: if a student gets straight As in one class, they probably get them in most classes.

 

If you mean that extra spark of talent of creativity, then perhaps there might be a link. I'd like to expand on an idea of Tim Gowers (Fields Medal) that the link, if it even exists, perhaps can be explained by the need to find beauty in abstract forms that defy verbal description sometimes, and to do either to a high level requires a commitment to something intangible, and a certain mindset common to both. However an aptitide at one certainly doesn't imply an aptitude at another.

 

A musician tried to get me to explain the simplest proof known to man, that root 2 is irrational, and they just didn't understand why it worked, why, even after we'd got to the stage "suppose not, and let root 2 equal a/b" (which took some effort to reach in itself) I'd want to square both sides.

 

But, that is just more anecdotal evidence that I'd dismiss.

[Dave]

Personally, I do believe that there is some sort of connection there (and, before everyone starts hitting me with sticks, this is my own personal opinion).

 

Having said that, I can't really found this from anything other than personal experience.

[Thales]

Wouldn't it be a result of;

A) your natural talent

B) your brain being able to symbolise and abstract things more readily as a result of lots of practice (in both maths and music)

C) the self discipline needed to learn both things

?

 

Assuming the second point is true I should imagine bi-lingual people are also able to learn music quicker.

[Dave]

I think it's probably to do with those reasons, yeah.

[TheProphet]

Or maybe so just that the the area for math and music are really close and when using the other stilumaling each other! With indeed some points as Thales pointed out too in his post!

[bloodhound]

maths and music are very close in my opinion. on sight reading, i dont read that much ahead. with a lot of playing, you just seem to know what progressions are about to occur, as well as various key modulations. I just seem to extrapolate on the current music and then correct the mistakes in real time. I am not sure if thats a good way to sight read.

[matt grime]

There are several threads there to develop.

 

Though first it might be better if each person said what aspects of mathematics and music were linked. The original idea that the physical dexterity required to play a complicated instrument doesn't mean the player could have written Bach's preludes and fugues, so how that implies they'd be able to understand the proof of Fermat's last theorem is a mystery.

And please understand I am deliberately emphasizing the purely mechanical without meaning to imply that the organist isn't "musically talented", I'm sure she is, but I know of some people capable of playing with great flair but only the things they've mechanically learnt.

 

So is it the ability to mechanically play a piece of music, to mechanically write a proof, to understand the flow of a piece of music and know where its progressions will lead, though that is a cultural phenomenon based upon our choice of scale, to see a proof before it's explained to you, to appreciate the music on some higher scale, to understand what a mathematician means when she describes a proof as beautiful or elegant? All or some of these facets. What level of mathematics do you mean, what level of musical ability? From reading this forum it seems like few people here are beyond high-school mathematics, which isn't mathematics as those of us who do research understand it, even degree mathematics bears no relevance to research, but then maybe that isn't the level of mathematics the comes into people's minds when the think of this alleged link.

 

One thing that is required in both areas is an ability to follow rules. And here is a similarity: there are those people to whom you can explain the rules as often as you wish, and they may even be able to recite the rules, but they can never learn to use them. They will just stare at the page blankly. So perhaps we can say that there are correlations between those able to not only understand the rules (though understand is a philosophically interesting word) but to implement them (Wittgenstein might have said that unless you can implement them you haven't understood them).

[coquina]

The original idea that the physical dexterity required to play a complicated instrument doesn't mean the player could have written Bach's preludes and fugues, so how that implies they'd be able to understand the proof of Fermat's last theorem is a mystery.

 

You're certainly right about that.

 

More anecdotes - sorry.

 

I can play "by note", but I can't play "by ear" - no matter how hard I try. I can understand trig and geometry, because I can "see" the solution. More abstract formula leave me befuddled. Of course, I use the geometry and trig daily, I never need to solve more complicated equations. However, I think some of us have more mechanical minds while others have more theoretical ones.

 

With regard to Mom - the organist. When she was in her late 80's she suffered a very serious stroke. The neurologist told me he expected that she would be left severely impaired. He was amazed that she recovered in short order with just a residual limp. I was talking to him about how mom was determined to get the use of her hands and feet back, so she could play the organ again. The doctor said she because she used more of her brain than most people, she had trained more neural pathways.

 

So - one of my ideas about the correlation of musicians and mathmaticians might be that because one simultaneously reads the notes, calculates the time, and uses hands (and breath and embouchure in the case of woodwinds and brass instruments), perhaps musicians develop more neural pathways, and maybe this helps one learn - not only math, but other subjects as well.

[paganinio]

...I think the most amazing thing I ever say was my mom play the organ. She played for the local funeral home' date=' you don't get a lot of opportunity to practice. She could simultaneously keep up with two manuals,treble and bass cleff, and a full set of pedals, she changed would reach up and change the stops from brass to woodwinds and not miss a beat, and - if necessary transpose the whole shooting match to another key. She could do this at the age of 95...how many of you mathmaticians read music and play an instrument? How much do you feel that the two skills are interrelated?...

[/quote']

 

all your words make me adore your mum, who is a great-skilled organist

if you say i am a mathematician, you must say i am a MUSICIAN before that well i sing, i play harmonicas, keyboards, percussions.

 

we might say physics and biology etc. are not so important as math, but CERTAINLY MUSIC IS AS IMPORTANT AS MATH, even Einstein would be confused by those 'SIGHT-READING' things.

world current greatest violinist Perlman said (below)

 

Q(Interviewer). Math and music are related?

 

A(Perlman). In a way. But if you play mathematically, it's not very good.

 

Q. Are you good at math?

 

A. No! In our family, we call it the "Perlman math curse." Only two of our kids are good at math. The rest have what my wife terms, "the regular Perlman math situation," which is, "What's THAT?"

[coquina]

Thank you paganinio - I wish you could have met her. Her motto was "learn something new every day". She loved the internet. On one of the history forums a group of Brits were talking about the London Blitz - she told them about being bombed by Zeppelins in WWI.

[YT2095]

Music and Math do go hand in hand, and very much so!

 

I`m a keyboard player, and have built several of my own in the past also, anyone that thinks maths and music aren`t rellated are just plain crazy

 

it`s actualy fascinating to see a waveform on an oscilloscope and then play a chord, the paterns created are nothing less than wonderfull to see, geometry is also significant, but then that`s also part of maths

 

I can`t do much more than basic arithmetic personaly, and I do play by ear more often than not ("jamming" as it`s called). I never think of the maths when I play, or when I write music, but in the construction and tuning of such instruments, one can`t avoid it!

 

so it`s rellated in more ways than one

[coquina]

Regarding tuning and pitch - you might find this interesting:

 

http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html

 

By the way - I mentioned earlier, I'm crossing the pond at the end of the month - just curious - will my cell phone work on your towers?

[bloodhound]

there is a high probability that it will. by the way, cell phone are called "mobile" over here, just so that you wont get vexed when u get here. where abouts u staying then? for how long?

[coquina]

Thx for info. A cousin is getting married and I'm going for the wedding. They live close to Ipswich, in Suffolk.

[bloodhound]

so i assume u been here before then?

[Dave]

Thx for info. A cousin is getting married and I'm going for the wedding. They live close to Ipswich, in Suffolk.

 

I've been around there, it's a nice place

[matt grime]

Music and Math do go hand in hand' date=' and very much so!

 

I`m a keyboard player, and have built several of my own in the past also, anyone that thinks maths and music aren`t rellated are just plain crazy

 

it`s actualy fascinating to see a waveform on an oscilloscope and then play a chord, the paterns created are nothing less than wonderfull to see, geometry is also significant, but then that`s also part of maths

 

I can`t do much more than basic arithmetic personaly, and I do play by ear more often than not ("jamming" as it`s called). I never think of the maths when I play, or when I write music, but in the construction and tuning of such instruments, one can`t avoid it!

 

so it`s rellated in more ways than one [/quote']

 

 

so you're a musician and *can't* do beyond basic arithmetic but math and music are related. That makes no sense.

[coquina]

Yes - I'm really looking forward to it. They live in a village called Bawdsey - where radar was invented.

 

Another thing I found interesting is that Bartholomew Gosnold, one of the founders of Jamestown, was from Suffolk, England, very close to where my cousin lives. Jamestown, VA is very close to where I live.

 

The towns and counties of southeast Virginia are named after the areas the first settlers called home. We have a Norfolk, Suffolk, Isle of Wight, New Kent, Yorktown, & Gloucester, just to name a few.

[coquina]

No, I have never been to your country before, what with running a family business, we could never get away long enough. I wouldn't be going over now, except that airline tickets are cheap enough that I don't feel like I will be wasting a ton (tonne? ) of money by just staying a week.

 

Some day I hope to be able to make a longer trip and see the places my mother knew. She was born in Leyland, Lancashire, moved to Bridge of Allen Scotland when she was 5, and to Ballymena, NI when she was 10. She came to the US when she was 21. Her maternal grandparents were from Harrogate, Yorkshire, and she spent a lot of time there too.

 

One of these days....

[YT2095]

so you're a musician and *can't* do beyond basic arithmetic but math and music are related. That makes no sense.

why is that difficult to grasp?