Why are you voting for Kerry?

[Phi for All]

Yup' date=' I looked at them all, read enough to get you point.

The one I liked best, was the last one

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/bush_lies.html[/quote']I figured you would. Do you realize that since much of the American media is owned my immense corporations that they can spin things any way they want in order to push their own agendas? THAT is why it's important to check out sources overseas like the BBC and others, to get a more accurate reading on how the world views us.

 

You're not a Nationalist, are you, Douglas?

[Douglas]

I figured you would. Do you realize that since much of the American media is owned my immense corporations that they can spin things any way they want in order to push their own agendas? THAT is why it's important to check out sources overseas like the BBC and others' date=' to get a more accurate reading on how the world views us.

 

You're not a Nationalist, are you, Douglas?[/quote']

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one.

No, I'm not a Nationalist

[jordan]

Many here have given you a ton of reasons why Bush is so lacking as the world's most powerful and influential leader.

Yes. That's important to my question. I'll agree to that.

 

 

 

This is where I'm afraid we are confused:

If we assume the first quote in this post plus this quote from a while back:

The man lacks something in his brain that most people have.

to be true, then I am interested in how you account for him still having 50-some% of the nation on his side. I'm not sure how he can be a stupid liar who is destroying the country when he has more than half the country convinced he's not a stupid liar.

 

 

 

You've been saying he's not that dumb. Fine. Let's talk about accomplishments while in office. Can you point out some of those, please?

I know you're looking for economic/foreign policy answers, but that wasn't what I was getting at. It seems one of his greatest accomplishments is getting reelected after "destroying" our's and Iraq's countries the first time around. That takes some inteligence to accomplish.

[Phi for All]

I am interested in how you account for him still having 50-some% of the nation on his side.

I am as baffeld in this as you are, jordan. To me, it's simply beyond belief.

 

The only thing that can account for it is that people are getting a slanted, biased version of what is really happening. They listen to sound bytes that assure them things will be OK. They hear that we bombed a terrorist stronghold but fail to ask if the terrorists were even there.

 

You have to remember that the real bad guys work in small groups, with lots of secrecy. They often don't know anyone outside their own cell. The really pathetic thing about terrorists is that Bush's tactics play right into their hands. They get funding from many people but their biggest funding happens when we waste billions in stupid, non-productive efforts to use bombs, planes and tanks against them.

 

They've accomplished their terrorism already. They've got the whole country divided, bickering amongst ourselves instead of asking our leadership to stop doing things the same old way, hoping for different outcomes. Didn't Einstein define insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

[Douglas]

You've been saying he's not that dumb. Fine. Let's talk about accomplishments while in office. Can you point out some of those, please?

Banned Partial Birth Abortion

 

Signed two income tax cuts

 

Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the

presidency.

 

Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities

 

Strengthen the National Health Service Corps

 

Prescription drug benefits

 

More health care choices:

 

New Health Savings Accounts:

 

Homeland Security

 

Is urging federal liability reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits

 

His leadership resulted in Republican gains in the House and Senate

 

Traditional Values, Compassion & Volunteerism

 

By Executive Order (EO), reversed Clinton's policy of not requiring parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act.

 

Supports permanent elimination of the death tax.

 

In process of permanently eliminating IRS marriage penalty.

 

Increased small business incentives to expand and to hire new people.

 

Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual investment accounts.

 

Killed Clinton's "ergonomic" rules that OSHA was about to implement; rules would have shut down every home business in America

 

Passed tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals.

 

Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains.

 

Reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for family farms and ranches.

 

Provided $20 million to states to help people with disabilities work from home

 

Increased the annual contribution limit on Education IRA's from $500 to $2,000 per child.

 

Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit and provide $1 billion over five years to increase the credit to $10,000.

 

Grant a complete tax exemption for prepaid or college tuition savings plans.

 

 

Signed the No Child Left Behind Act

Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty

[Phi for All]

Banned Partial Birth Abortion

With a bill that is so vague it has already been struck down at least twice. http://www.aclu.org/ReproductiveRights/ReproductiveRights.cfm?ID=4998&c=148

 

Signed two income tax cuts

Which gave the best cuts to the top tax brackets, people who already get major breaks from deductions and the ability to hire the best lawyers and accountants. These tax breaks are part of the reason we are crippled economically and have such a huge deficit.

 

Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the

presidency.

Ah, I see. Lying about why we're at war is more honorable and dignified than lying about having an affair.

 

Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities

I read that as ignoring the United Nations and conventions the rest of the world has recognized as peacekeeping efforts worldwide.

Strengthen the National Health Service Corps

The Corps is a wonderful organization but it falls short of being able to serve many underserved communities. And since unemployment and the economy have fallen so badly under Bush, medical coverage is needed by more people than ever who don't qualify for NHSC.

 

Prescription drug benefits

Where have you been? Bush promised lower prescription prices to the elderly and their costs have gone up, while pharmaceutical companies have been given billions in incentives.

 

More health care choices:

Again, paid for with what money?

 

New Health Savings Accounts:

These are extremely limited and extremely complicated. As a test it is acceptable, but full-scale implementation is questionable.

 

Homeland Security

Oh, don't even get me started. You would be appalled to know the truth of the freedoms you gave up when your representatives signed the Patriot Act. And by the way, we are less secure than ever because not only has his economic efforts left every government organization underfunded, his war in Iraq has increased terrorist activity and recruitment and insured that we will be targets for a very long time.

 

Is urging federal liability reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits

The same way, as governor, he urged the Texas assembly to limit enrollment in the Children's Health Insurance Program? If they'd listened to him they would have been far under Federal guidelines, keeping an estimated 200,00-500,00 children from benefiting. Bush was so far outvoted on that he couldn't even use his veto power. Then he later bragged that Texas was signing up kids as fast as any other state.

His leadership resulted in Republican gains in the House and Senate

A partisan issue that interests me about this much.

 

Traditional Values, Compassion & Volunteerism

TV=log the Pacific Northwest/Drill for oil in wildlife refuges, Compassion=start 2 wars, Volunteerism=we have no money to pay you.

 

By Executive Order (EO), reversed Clinton's policy of not requiring parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act.

I always find it amazing how Republicans want the government to stay out of their personal lives... until it comes to a religious argument like abortion. I have no answer for you on this one. I believe in personal choice when it comes to your own body, even if you're a teenager.

 

Supports permanent elimination of the death tax.

First of all, it's the Estate Tax, and your estate is already exempt up to $3.5 million. Again, it only affects the very wealthy. This is an obvious attempt by the Baby Boomers to save even more tax money, something we're desperately in need of with Bush starting all these multi-billion dollar wars. This was "spun" as the Death tax so everyone would get out there and defend the wealthy, just like they are doing with Bush's tax cuts.

In process of permanently eliminating IRS marriage penalty.

This means squat. There are some people who benefit from the marriage rules, some who don't. Just like people who bitch about the extra taxes they pay when they nose into the next higher bracket. It happens. It's tough. Get over it.

 

Increased small business incentives to expand and to hire new people.

Again, nullified by what he's done to the economy. With his incentives to the rich and the mega-corporations, small business has a tougher time of making it than ever before in history.

 

Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual investment accounts.

Ah, one of the next big business schemes, along with privatizing consumer debt and educational block grants. Just another moneymaker for folks who already have enough.

 

Killed Clinton's "ergonomic" rules that OSHA was about to implement; rules would have shut down every home business in America

Home businesses?! What are you going to do, sue yourself for repetitive motion injuries incurred in your home business? Perhaps I didn't understand you here. Perhaps your cut and paste job on this question was a bit too inclusive.

 

Passed tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals.

Which makes me very interested to see what technicality Bush-buddy Ken Lay of Enron will be let off on.

 

Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains.

Which, again, after what he's done to the economy, only benefits the wealthiest individuals.

 

Reduced and is working to ultimately eliminate the estate tax for family farms and ranches.

You really need to do your research on this one. No one loses their farms to the estate tax. That was a political spin tactic used to make it seem like hard workers like farmers were getting ripped off. Completely untrue. http://www.ombwatch.org/npadv/estatetax/estatebackground.html

 

Provided $20 million to states to help people with disabilities work from home

Hey, a good thing! Let's see, $20 million divided by 50 states...

 

Increased the annual contribution limit on Education IRA's from $500 to $2,000 per child.

 

Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit and provide $1 billion over five years to increase the credit to $10,000.

 

Grant a complete tax exemption for prepaid or college tuition savings plans.

I'm getting tired, so I'll acceed to these things. They sound like good deals.

 

 

Signed the No Child Left Behind Act

He pushed for this and then left it underfunded by $27 billion. Many children are being left behind.

Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty

And is now scrambling to put forth his own inept version which allows major polluters to voluntarily reduce their emmissions. And that has worked how many times in the past? Another slap in the face of the world scientific community. Experts? We don't need no stinkin' experts! Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaw! (for Sayonara³)

[Nevermore]

Douglass, I am known (especialy to Thales) as being arrogant and closed minded, but you are completely ignoring everything that you don't want to hear, so here I'll repeat it loudly for you:

BUSH IS A TYRANT AND A DICTATOR

Ex. Stalin took over Russia by claiming that Treasonists and sabatours were ruing the country, and that he, and he alone could stop them.

 

Substitute the treasonists and sabatours with terrorists, and who do you get?BUSH

Here's another example:

Hitler took over Germany by promising to weed out unwanted people, Hitler was refering to what he planned to do in the Holocaust.

 

Bush promised to weed out terrorists. He was refering to: you guessed it, the war in Iraq.

 

In promising to eliminate terrorists, Bush has played of everyone's fears, and established a nation-wide racisim againist anyone from the middle east.

Ex.A group of Sikhs were murdered, for the sole reason that they wear Turbans. Sikhs belive in peace and non-violence. They would not terrorize people.

 

Conclusion: Bush is a murdurous, racist, dictator.

[jordan]

you are completely ignoring everything that you don't want to hear

You are doing the same thing on a certain level. You have begun to convince yourself that Bush is only in this for himself and that he is evil and selfish. That's not true. Though some of his actions may have selfish motivations, he does most of what he does sincerely and after considering the consequences. I'm not saying he's the best at weighing all the options and then picking the best one, but a statement like this:

"Conclusion: Bush is a murdurous, racist, dictator."

just goes to show how much you have begun to decieve yourself. Phi is very outspoken against Bush, and though I don't want to speak for him, I don't think even he would support any of the three conclusions you have drawn.

 

If you wish to attack someone for being brainwashed by senseless media, I think you should make sure you don't overuse the exagerations. Calling Bush murdurous is questionable. Calling Bush racist is wrong. Calling Bush a dictator is just being rediculous.

[blike]

Lying about why we're at war

 

Are you referring to WMD specifically or the reasons for war? If you're talking about WMD exclusively, it's already been determined several times that he didn't lie. If you're talking about reasons, the details are spelled out in his address to the U.N. back in 2002.

 

Which gave the best cuts to the top tax brackets

 

But they also gave cuts to over 75% of the population. The average tax cut was $1,217. The tax cuts increase as the amount spent on taxes increases. Even the median, $470, is four hundred and seventy dollars that I didn't have before.

 

I read that as ignoring the United Nations and conventions the rest of the world has recognized as peacekeeping efforts worldwide.

 

Interpret how you want, but you can't deny that the U.N. is mostly talk and no action, especially with Iraq. The cease fire was contingent upon Saddam complying with resolutions, and he clearly did not, for over 8 years.

 

Where have you been? Bush promised lower prescription prices to the elderly and their costs have gone up, while pharmaceutical companies have been given billions in incentives.

 

The act doesn't go in effect till 2006.

 

The same way, as governor, he urged the Texas assembly to limit enrollment in the Children's Health Insurance Program? If they'd listened to him they would have been far under Federal guidelines, keeping an estimated 200,00-500,00 children from benefiting. Bush was so far outvoted on that he couldn't even use his veto power. Then he later bragged that Texas was signing up kids as fast as any other state.

 

That's really not relevant to the statement.

 

TV=log the Pacific Northwest/Drill for oil in wildlife refuges, Compassion=start 2 wars, Volunteerism=we have no money to pay you.

 

Which would probably have little impact on the environment, but I haven't studied much on the issue. I don't see anything wrong with reducing foreign dependency, at all. I think terrorism started at least one of them. Your third point is at best speculation, but it was probably just a jab. Whats wrong with encouraging volunteering?

 

I believe in personal choice when it comes to your own body, even if you're a teenager.

 

I disagree with Bush's decision, but I don't agree with your reasoning either. Where do you stand on sex with a minor? What about a minor giving consent for anything?

 

First of all, it's the Estate Tax, and your estate is already exempt up to $3.5 million. Again, it only affects the very wealthy.

 

So if it doesn't affect everybody, it's moot?

 

Hey, a good thing! Let's see, $20 million divided by 50 states...

 

It was actually $20 million to rehabilitation engineering research centers. That's a $6.7 million increase over the regular level.

[Phi for All]

Phi is very outspoken against Bush, and though I don't want to speak for him, I don't think even he would support any of the three conclusions you have drawn.

You are correct here, jordan. But a large part of my fear is what we'll realize about Bush ten years from now. At the time, Hitler and Stalin were looked up to, they seemed to provide answers to a troubled people, and their actions were considered bold and decisive.

 

It sincerely frightens me that the same thing may be happening here in the US.

 

I know what you're saying. Here? No way, land of the free, home of the brave, too many checks and balances. But the Patriot Act says that all the FBI needs to do to strip you of your rights is to link you in any way to terrorism. They could say that my outspokenness on this forum constituted a threat to national security and throw me in prison without benefit of legal council, as long as they can circumvent my citizenship by claiming I had something to do with terrorism. All it would take would be to run a crypto-program on the bulk of my posts and find one instance that equalled "Meet Osama 2nite" and they could claim I'm sending secret messages. Think it's funny? You'd never hear about it. That's the power of the Patriot Act.

[Nevermore]

You are doing the same thing on a certain level.

You are right, but I'll admit it at least. I am a muddy dog democrat, I'd rather vote for a muddy dog than a republican. There you go. I admited it.

[Phi for All]

Are you referring to WMD specifically or the reasons for war? If you're talking about WMD exclusively, it's already been determined several times that he didn't lie. If you're talking about reasons, the details are spelled out in his address to the U.N. back in 2002.

Bush cited a report by the International Atomic Energy Agency saying the Iraqis were "six months away from developing a weapon." This was a major factor in gaining support for the invasion. There was no such report. Lie. A year later, Condoleezza Rice told reporters that Iraq's nuclear weapon capability was more like five years away. When asked about the discrepancy, she said no one in the administration, to her knowledge, had ever said it was less than a year away. Lie.

But they also gave cuts to over 75% of the population. The average tax cut was $1,217. The tax cuts increase as the amount spent on taxes increases. Even the median, $470, is four hundred and seventy dollars that I didn't have before.

I know where that money belongs. I've seen the deficit figures.

The act doesn't go in effect till 2006.

You're right. Bad tense, bad deal.http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42445-2003Mar4?language=printer

That's really not relevant to the statement.

Again, you're right. But I also didn't think "urging" without results was a valid point either.

I disagree with Bush's decision, but I don't agree with your reasoning either. Where do you stand on sex with a minor? What about a minor giving consent for anything?

Like most fathers, I dislike thinking of my daughter being sexually active before she's ready. Since there is no way I can monitor my daughter 24/7 once she gets past elementary school, I am raising her to be responsible for herself. Part of that responsibilty is knowing what is best for her own body. I know that forbidding her to have sex will simply drive her into the arms of the scuzziest doofus she can find (she's ornery that way, even at the age of 5). By teaching her to respect herself now, I hope I can trust her to make the right decisions then. I would love to think that the law regarding age of consent will be enough to deter her, but judging from what I hear from parents of teenagers, it will be a turbulent time that is best handled on a day to day basis, not by handing down the word from on high and hope that I will be obeyed.

 

Did you wait until you were 18?

So if it doesn't affect everybody, it's moot?

Come on, you know the real issue here is calling it the Death Tax and pretending it's going to be good for everyone, especially farmers, who are the salt of the earth in most people's opinions. It's a snow job that was pushed on us to play on our sympathies.

It was actually $20 million to rehabilitation engineering research centers. That's a $6.7 million increase over the regular level.

Like I said, it's a good thing. I hope that money goes a long way.

[Thales]

Douglass, I am known (especialy to Thales) as being arrogant and closed minded.

 

Please don't get the wrong Idea. I am here to educate people. Just because I pointed out some holes in your reasoning doesn't mean you've lost any of my respect. The fact you listened to me as I said earlier, makes you smarter in my eyes.

 

As for Bush. I don't think its really worth debating anymore, seeing as the people who are voting for him are so locked in their views as are the people voting against him.

 

That said I am astounded that he can still convince half the counrty that he is a good leader. I've said it several times before but if he gets re-elected the rest of the world will take it pretty badly. It will be a stark demonstration to the rest of the world about the extent of American naivity. Not to mention making you a prime terror target for the next 4 years. Maybe someone will assasinate him, oh I forgot that only happens to decent presidents.

[blike]

But I also didn't think "urging" without results was a valid point either.

 

Agreed.

 

I know where that money belongs. I've seen the deficit figures.

 

Very true, good point. I wish the government would just scale back on the whole and stop spending more than it has. I'm sure there are billions of dollars being thrown away, aside from the war.

Did you wait until you were 18?

 

I meant an adult having sex with a minor, not sex between minors.

 

It's a snow job that was pushed on us to play on our sympathies.

 

I still think it's a good thing.

 

As to your first point, I'll have to get back to you. Girlfriend is waiting for me to watch a movie with her.

[Phi for All]

Here's another reason to vote Kerry, if science is important to you. Maybe someone with subscriptions to Science or Nature or both could enlighten us further. Sounds like religion, being free to pollute & nuclear war take precedence with Bush.

 

Yahoo link to OneWorld.net story

[jgerlica]

Because he's the lesser of two evils. Oh we're talking about Kerry? Sorry I thought this was the G.W. thread.

[Dapthar]

Here's another reason to vote Kerry' date=' if science is important to you. Maybe someone with subscriptions to [i']Science[/i] or Nature or both could enlighten us further. Sounds like religion, being free to pollute & nuclear war take precedence with Bush.

 

Yahoo link to OneWorld.net story

Links:

 

Nature's 15 Questions:

http://www.nature.com/news/specials/uselection/index.html

 

Science's Interviews with the Candidates about Science: (Click "Begin Manual Download")

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/rapidpdf/1104420v1

 

Both are free of charge, and require no previous subscription to either magazine.

[Pangloss]

Phi asked me to read this thread and add my comments, as a Florida undecided voter, so here I am. I've enjoyed reading your posts, and while I didn't really find anything totally unfamiliar in there, I did find them to be generally well above the average post quality on the other boards I've read. This is a pretty level-headed bunch and the quality of discussion here is high. (With one or two exceptions...) Douglas has an especially good post back on page 7 that I hope everyone reads.

 

 

I voted for Bush in 2000, but I'm not a die-hard Republican. I'm registered as a Republican for primaries but that's because you have to be one or the other in order to vote in the primaries. I often vote for Democrats, and I'm campaigning for one this fall as a matter of fact (one who's acquired some national notoriety, in fact). I have voted for about the same number of Democrats for president as I have Republicans. But I do lean a little to the right of center.

 

Several things over the last four years have lead me to second-guess myself on supporting Bush, but let me first list the arguments that do NOT persuade me:

 

- "Anybody But Bush" -- that's no way to waste your vote. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with having a reason to vote against Bush (I have quite a few). What I think is is a waste are people who object to Bush on *every* grounds, regardless of the issue. I mean it's a free country, everyone can believe what they like; I'm just saying it doesn't work for me.

 

- "Bush lied" -- to me there's a huge difference between "lie" and "mistake". This argument doesn't cut it for me.

 

- Ideological partisanship in general carries very little weight with me in either direction. If something is a right idea, it doesn't matter where it comes from. The minute an argument strays away from truth and accuracy and into partisan assumption, you lose my interest. By all means, believe what you like, but I won't waste my time with it. (I do enjoy partisan rants as a form of entertainment. Michael Moore, Ann Coulter, Al Franken, Sean Hannity, etc. But I view them all as *the same*. But you'll note I don't include Bill O'Reilly with this bunch.)

 

- Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (sic). See above -- this kind of reasoning doesn't cut it for me. Kerry has the documentation, stop wasting my time.

 

- Memogate/Docugate/Rathergate/Killian Memos. Interesting for the media and blogosphere social aspects of the story, but not interesting from a political perspective. Bush has the documentation, stop wasting my time.

 

- $160 million in shameful 527-group advertising with obvious ties to the Kerry campaign. As far as I'm concerned, Soros is wasting his money. (And I love being his worst nightmare -- an independent Florida voter who has no problem considering voting for Bush.)

 

 

Here are the arguments in Kerry's favor that I *have* found convincing:

 

- Decorated combat veteran. (Who am I to argue with John McCain?)

 

- Kerry wants to cut taxes to 98% of Americans and 99% of American businesses.

 

- Jose Padilla/Guantanamo Bay/personal liberties issues. (You'll note I do not include the Patriot Act, which after some analysis I am much less concerned about.)

 

- Neo-conservatives and the Project for the New American Century. If you don't know what that's about, you should find out. These guys have stolen the Republican party from mainstream America, and most of mainstream American doesn't even know it. (See Pat Buchanon's new book.)

 

- Iraq was a HUGE mistake. It's cost us a lot and it's going to keep on costing us.

 

- Better chance to fix our strained relations with the world.

 

- Better shot at a balanced budget.

 

- PBA Ban. (I'm pro-choice.)

 

- A good start on healthcare -- but I think we'll get this whether Kerry's in office or not, via the potential compromise between Kerry's and Bill Frist's plans. (See http://www.centrists.org.)

 

 

Here are the points I have in Bush's favor:

 

- Globalization. Kerry makes me nervous -- I think he'll blow it with protectionist measures and pandering to the unions (just as Clinton almost blew it). Can't fight this stuff, we're in it now, it's free trade or die.

 

- Bush has shepherded us from a recession *and* 9/11 back to a surging economy producing numbers we didn't think were possible a year ago.

 

- Many of the reasons why the world "hates us" have nothing at all to do with Bush. Frankly I'm sick of it being a policeman and a scapegoat and getting stuck with responsibility for the world's problems no matter what their real fault may be. (This isn't really so much a point in Bush's favor as it is a reason not to "change ships in midstream" as it were.)

 

- Osama would love for me to vote for Kerry. That's almost enough to vote for Bush right there.

 

- No Child Left Behind. Someone posted above that this is underfunded by $27 billion, but that's just a Kerry talking point -- that's a triviality, a drop in the bucket. This is a much, much larger issue, and I have no problem with Bush's handling of it.

 

 

There's more but I think that covers the basics.

[budullewraagh]

it's free trade or die.

well... i believe that complete free market capitalism is always doomed to fail (see my post in the "Challenge:" forum.) nobody ever accepted my challenge and i'd like to debate this if you would)

 

- Osama would love for me to vote for Kerry. That's almost enough to vote for Bush right there.

i'm sorry, but i just cannot accept the statement that bush is hard on terrorists. our forces are currently concentrated in iraq, not known as a terrorist stronghold. kerry does, in fact, have a plan to fight a compassionate war on terror (note: bush used the word "compassionate" as well in a speech a few months ago). the war on terror cannot be won with military force because frankly, force is not an option. example: every day, many trains filled with boron trifluoride and other nasty gases pass by about 200 yards from the capitol. it takes so much as a stray bullet from a single murder attempt to end up murdering hundreds of thousands. that's bloody scary, but nothing is being done. any one of us could do that damage without being caught beforehand. a DC resident could say "hmm, i think i'll blow that up" one day and do so. there are some things that people cannot prevent. we must embrace the truth and get over it.

 

by the way, it's nice to see a centrist here

[Pangloss]

Yeah that's the counterpoint alright, and I respect it. I'm actually okay with Kerry as terrorism-fighter, partly because of his bipartisan "strength" support (namely John McCain). I'm keeping an open mind about it.

 

One thing I am *not* holding against Kerry in this area are his lack of specific plans for terrorism and Iraq. There's no way he can talk about the details of, say, how he plans to help Iraq hold a peaceful election, because the enemy is listening, and would like nothing more than to screw up a new president just entering office. I want more detail from Kerry on other things, but he gets a pass on this one, and my full support if he wins, whether I vote for him or not.

 

 

well... i believe that complete free market capitalism is always doomed to fail (see my post in the "Challenge:" forum.) nobody ever accepted my challenge and i'd like to debate this if you would)

 

Tempting -- I'll bet I could put up some good counterpoint for that (do I have to actually disagree with you or can I play devil's advocate?). I love the moderated debate board you guys have here, but when I looked over the actual discussions it looked like a HUGE amount of work went into those posts. Which is a good thing, of course, but I'm not sure if I have the time for it -- I just started a new term today. I'll think about it. Thanks for the invite.

[Douglas]

Kerry wants to cut taxes to 98% of Americans and 99% of American businesses.

I read your list of the pro's and con's of each candidate.

I doubt that Kerry would ever cut taxes. He's never seen a new tax that he that didn't fall in love with.

Anyway, I'd look at the parties polictical philosophy rather than what they promise.

Since I'm a moderate conservative, I'll list the things the liberals are for/against.

for...Taxation

for...Partial birth abortion

against... tort reform

for... gun control

against...elimination of marriage tax

against...business' (who provide the jobs) in general

for...unions...like the NEA (who's screwed the education system)

Against...partially privatizing the social security system

against...reducing the tax on capital gains...most americans are in the market

against...eliminating the estate tax

against...complete tax exemption for prepaid or college tuition savings plans.

against...the death penalty

For...leniency of sentencing crooks to jail

And more

 

I'll leave the Bush/conservative haters to make up a list against the conservatives.

[Pangloss]

I doubt that Kerry would ever cut taxes. He's never seen a new tax that he that didn't fall in love with.

 

Could be. But that's what he's promised, and of course if he fails in that promise then he'll pay a price for that.

[Phi for All]

Since I'm a moderate conservative, I'll list the things the liberals are for/against. *snip* I'll leave the Bush/conservative haters to make up a list against the conservatives.

Nothing like having someone make sweeping generalities based on ill-conceived and barely researched notions. Pretty pathetic, Douglas.

 

I especially like the part where I'm against business in general. Why, because I like it when companies treat their workers fairly? Or when I insist that they are held accountable to stockholders and pension recipients?

 

You forgot the part where we hate the soldiers and hope they get hurt just because we're against the war in Iraq. That's usually part of the conservative rhetoric as well.

 

I don't think anybody is going to give you a dumb, ill-conceived list of fallacies against the conservatives. We'll leave the hate to you and yours.

[Pangloss]

I don't think anybody is going to give you a dumb, ill-conceived list of fallacies against the conservatives. We'll leave the hate to you and yours.

 

Allow me to quote from Thales page 5:

 

Bush ia a war-mongerer.

He is also a redneck.

He is also stupid.

He is also a dangerous man to be leading the 'free' world in dangerous times.

He does not appear to have extensive knowledge of history, or at least his actions seem to lead me to that conclusion.

He, with his Dad and Brother, helped rigged the last election.

He is very right wing.

He helps his rich mates and doesn't give a stuff about the poor or the environment. He has no respect for other religions or political doctrines.

He believes you can forcefully instill democracy in other countries via violence.

He rarily finishes what he starts.

He screwed my counrty with a bodgy FTA.

He has done next to nothing for the general scientific community.

He operates on the politics of fear.

He has made the terrorist threat worldwide worse, not better.

He lets his cronies run the show.

He has distanced the American population from the rest of the world by his actions.

 

and worst of all;

 

He has an insane ability to make half of your counrty think that he is a good leader.

 

(Hehe, you did ask me to read the entire thread...) ;-)

[Pangloss]

Sorry, by the way, I just couldn't resist -- the irony was too rich. Nothing personal, you seem like a nice guy Phi. I actually agree with you, in fact, and try hard to avoid sweeping generalizations myself, for exaclty the reason that you, well, generalized about. (grin)