11 Russian Spies Caught Today

[Zolar V]

So how about those 11 russina spies who have been allegedly working for the russian intelligence agency. Apparently they have been undercover and being watched by the FBI for quite a few years, but the arrests were made after the recient "resetting" of the russia-US relations.

 

Do you think they were actually spies, or have they been set up in a political subterfuge by either government to destroy potential realtions for a unkown third party for thier own unkown gains?

 

 

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/28/russian.spying.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/29/femme-fatale-rounded-nest-alleged-russian-spies/

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Here are the court documents:

 

http://documents.nytimes.com/criminal-complaints-from-the-justice-department?ref=europe

 

I skimmed through, and it looks like the FBI has a solid case. Intercepted messages, surveillance, audio recordings of incriminating conversations, etc.

[Sisyphus]

I don't think it would hurt relations, really. It's not a secret that nations spy on one another.

[Pangloss]

That would have been my guess as well, and it presumably won't affect the opinions of most Americans, but check out this rather stark New York Times piece published just a few minutes ago:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/30/world/europe/30lavrov.html?src=mv

 

Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement calling the arrests “baseless” and “unseemly.” It accused American prosecutors of acting “in the spirit of the spy passions of the cold war period.”

 

“We would like to note only that this type of release of information has happened more than once in the past, when our relations were on the rise,” the statement said. “In any case, it deeply regrettable that all this is taking place on the background of the ‘reset’ in Russian-American relations declared by the United States administration itself.”

 

Some Russian politicians declared that the announcement of the arrests indicated that hostile elements in the United States government were bent on preventing relations from flourishing.

[Zolar V]

"Some Russian politicians declared that the announcement of the arrests indicated that hostile elements in the United States government were bent on preventing relations from flourishing. " “We would like to note only that this type of release of information has happened more than once in the past, when our relations were on the rise,” the statement said. “In any case, it deeply regrettable that all this is taking place on the background of the ‘reset’ in Russian-American relations declared by the United States administration itself.

 

 

 

It seems to me that there is some political subterfuge happening. It also seems that the political subterfuge could be very interesting in how it affects world politics.

The response that the russian offical has to our timing seems to hold the most weight,

 

"Some Russian politicians declared that the announcement of the arrests indicated that hostile elements in the United States government were bent on preventing relations from flourishing."

 

Of course in response to Captn', these types of subterfuges should be well known and be konwn as extremely common, its just a wonder that we dont see any more of them. that and if i were to plot data, the outcomes could be somewhat predictable.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

By "subterfuge," are you suggesting that the FBI fabricated the evidence against these individuals, or that their arrest was carefully timed and used for political purposes?

[Pangloss]

Yes, and what would be the motivation for this action, please?

[CharonY]

Cool things about the spy ring

 

Intelligence agencies need better script writers.

[Pangloss]

That bit about them using steganography was interesting. You hear about stuff like that from time to time, mainly in televisions shows and novels. Might be interesting to see some samples of what they actually did.

[Zolar V]

By "subterfuge," are you suggesting that the FBI fabricated the evidence against these individuals, or that their arrest was carefully timed and used for political purposes?

 

Im talking about the carefully timed release of the case for political purposes.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Hmm, okay.

 

I'm not sure I see what gains we'd get out of this, though. We've been trying to improve relations with Russia recently, not damage them. Perhaps if there were some issue we needed leverage on -- some issue where saying "ah, but you spied on us!" would help get them to cooperate with us.

 

I don't know what that would be. What do we stand to gain?

[Pangloss]

Hm, well there might be something to it in terms of people operating within the bureaucracy who want to embarrass the President. I flew by a couple of articles today in the mainstream media suggesting this.

[Zolar V]

Hmm, okay.

 

I'm not sure I see what gains we'd get out of this, though. We've been trying to improve relations with Russia recently, not damage them. Perhaps if there were some issue we needed leverage on -- some issue where saying "ah, but you spied on us!" would help get them to cooperate with us.

 

I don't know what that would be. What do we stand to gain?

 

That is the question i am contemplating.

 

Hm, well there might be something to it in terms of people operating within the bureaucracy who want to embarrass the President. I flew by a couple of articles today in the mainstream media suggesting this.

 

Of course you could take the rout where the media has its own political agenda and whether or not it coincides with the political figures who may or may not be using this for their benefit.

IMO i think it might be a ploy designed by the FBI top dude. I've heard some pretty shady things about those guys. I don't know if this is true, but the timing would make sense if the FBI guy didn't like Obama and was trying to sabotage what he could, for his own personal gain.

Maybe his vote was bought out by the unelected official, and because the unelected official wasn't elected, the official wasn't able to pay his price.

 

Or if you notice within the stories that there was a guy not named but mentioned as being one of Obama's cabinet or a close friend to a cabinet member. One could assume that the whole ploy was to take that guys position in a game of backstabbing and two facing.

 

But like i said before, it all seems interesting. It has a lot of "seeming" to it, a lot of speculation. If there is speculation then there is doubt. If there is doubt then there is a real reason behind it. So IMO again, there must be some real serious politics going on in the scenery.

[Genecks]

I like your theory, Zolar V.

Because of the Patriot Act, the executive branch gained a lot of domestic spy power.

 

I wonder if this stuff will get on WWE Raw.

 

I think inside bickering in the government and random coups is the last thing we need.

I'm always game for it, though. Just need to get rid of some gun bans. That's all. lololololol

[CharonY]

There was an interesting article in the German Spiegel. The essence was that this is either the one of the most inept spy ring ever (the only intel they offered were apparently easier to acquire via google). They further quoted Ex-KGBs stating that this is either a political intrigue or their foreign intel really has degenerated.

 

Something similar was found in the Time magazine:

 

Still, the FBI has alleged no espionage or loss of classified materials. Indeed, much of what it maintains the Russians were seeking could be gleaned from a Google search. "It's interesting that they're not charged with espionage after having this blanket coverage for years, and no indication of them picking up classified stuff and transmitting it back," says Peter Earnest, a 36-year CIA veteran who now serves as executive director of the International Spy Museum in Washington. "It's like going after the Mafia for tax evasion."

It doesn't help that the arrests were made just days after Russian President Dmitri Medvedev visited Washington. Says Leon Aron, director of Russian studies at the American Enterprise Institute: "Obama had this heart-to-heart chat with Medvedev in the hamburger joint, they're the best buddies, then he leaves and they roll up — with great fanfare — a bunch of people who they could not even charge with espionage." Aron is leery of claims that the Russians needed to be captured because they were on the verge of fleeing. "To say we needed to roll them because they were a pending threat to national security would be a slight exaggeration," he says. "If there's any intrigue here, it's not on the Russian side — it's on our side."

 

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2000732,00.html#ixzz0sZRAegL1

 

 

 

On the other hand there is pretty much solid evidence that they were engaged in something.

[Pangloss]

I think the FBI actually acknowledged that point when they arrested them, basically saying that they only moved in because there was reason to believe that the whole thing was about to be shut down. I guess that kinda makes sense; they've violated some minor laws, but if you don't at least arrest them then you just end up with egg on your face down the road (assuming it comes out, or at least you look bad in the intelligence community).

[Zolar V]

from what i read they really did not seem to be a "flight" issue, so that one seems to be thrown out, which again just leaves political intrigue

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Why didn't they? One of the 11 was already out of the country, and it was suggested that the others may have left soon if the FBI hadn't arrested them.

 

That's what the Justice Department said, at least.

[Zolar V]

Why didn't they? One of the 11 was already out of the country, and it was suggested that the others may have left soon if the FBI hadn't arrested them.

 

That's what the Justice Department said, at least.

 

Even if they did leave before we could capture them, we had their real names their fake names and their bosses names. Along with a whole slew of documented information about them, their actions and just about everything we want to know.

 

Surely even if they left our jurisdiction we could have used this information as a sort of leverage against Russia for whatever we wanted.

 

Similar to the china-America accident that happened a few years back. where there was a plane doing some missions out on china's border that they didn't like. The plane had a in-flight emergency, and was forced to land on a Chinese base.

The Chinese used them and the plane as a leverage to host the Olympics in their country. they used the Olympics to promote Chinese propaganda to include propaganda involving communism > capitalism. the Chinese liked the communist state. And there was not atrocities happening around their country due to communism. In general it was a move to try to raise the world's opinion of them.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

What sort of leverage would you get against Russia? They'd just give the agents new identities (old hat for them, anyway -- retired spies don't go around saying they'd been spies for the KGB) and deny everything. Without captured Russian agents, Russian diplomats could easily say "So? We don't care about your accusations!" to any American trying to get leverage.

 

The US and Russia spy on each other all the time. They don't get embarrassed about it, just annoyed that their money was wasted.

[Pangloss]

Similar to the china-America accident that happened a few years back. where there was a plane doing some missions out on china's border that they didn't like. The plane had a in-flight emergency, and was forced to land on a Chinese base.

 

The Chinese used them and the plane as a leverage to host the Olympics in their country. they used the Olympics to promote Chinese propaganda to include propaganda involving communism > capitalism. the Chinese liked the communist state. And there was not atrocities happening around their country due to communism. In general it was a move to try to raise the world's opinion of them.

 

The plane in question, an American military surveillance aircraft, was actually struck by a Chinese fighter plane, which subsequently crashed, killing the pilot. The Chinese had a number of reasonable diplomatic complaints regarding that incident, but it did accept the emergency landing, treated the military personnel well, and returned all of them and their aircraft in short order. This incident took place in 2001, and is summarized in the Wikipedia here.

 

I am unaware of any connection between that event and the subsequent hosting decision by the International Olympic Committee to hold the 2008 games in Beijing (though that decision did take place just three months after the incident). If you have any evidence of a connection please post it.

[Zolar V]

True, the leverage does depend upon actual physical proof of such as opposed to documented proof. Since that is the case, what sort of leverage could we obtain with the captured spies?

 

Also true, we spy on each other all the time, though it is much more of an embarrassment when we are found out. there does seem to be some sort of code or informal law between the countries that spy on each other. The code basically states that if the person spying is found out that they will have to pay some sort of restitution to the country that was able to find out. The code is more of an unwritten one between the politicians of such countries.

 

But if that is the case, again i ask, what is the leverage we are trying to achieve. If, of course, that is the purpose of capturing the spies.

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The plane in question, an American military surveillance aircraft, was actually struck by a Chinese fighter plane, which subsequently crashed, killing the pilot. The Chinese had a number of reasonable diplomatic complaints regarding that incident, but it did accept the emergency landing, treated the military personnel well, and returned all of them and their aircraft in short order. This incident took place in 2001, and is summarized in the Wikipedia here.

 

I am unaware of any connection between that event and the subsequent hosting decision by the International Olympic Committee to hold the 2008 games in Beijing (though that decision did take place just three months after the incident). If you have any evidence of a connection please post it.

 

Yes the EP-3 crew is the one i was talking about.

Unfortunately i have no evidence supporting either of my claims. The only input i have from them is previous talks with some folks somewhat involved in said incident.

To my knowledge, what i have stated is true. Also something not written in the wiki article, but should be taken into account for the sheer logic involved. Is that after the return of the aircraft it was noted that many of the boxes and equipment on board the aircraft were moved, taken apart, attempted to reverse engineered, and put back together (albeit, put back together incorrectly).

The treatment of the EP-3 crew was one of the best detainment treatment ever recorded in resent history.

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excuse me, it does seem that one sentence was devoted to what i just said. I merely skimmed the article, to see if it was the same one i was talking about, then to see if it didn't have some information i might have.

[jryan]

That reset button was turned up to "60s Bond Film" apparently.

[Zolar V]

reset button?

[jryan]

reset button?

 

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101532912