Lies and propaganda or the truth?

[Astrid]

War time propaganda is nothing new. Lately, I have seen that perhaps the Holocuast has been exaggerated for the most part. To explain my views on this subject, I have given some links that might be insightful to you as well.

 

Firstly, I beleive the numbers were exaggerated. Six million Jews did not die. http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/english1011.html

 

The rumors of death camps began before death camps were even initiated.

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/012_jam.html

 

"Holocaust" authors claim that the Nazis were able to cremate bodies in about 10 minutes. How long does it take to incinerate one body, according to professional crematory operators?

 

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/042_jam.html

 

Also, you might be interested to know that Zyklon B (Hydrogen Cyanide or HCN) which was used to gas the Jewish people was sold in tins that containd 1.134kg of HCN. According to the Merck Index, above 25 degrees celsius HCN readily forms the gas. Fine. According to the Merck and other sources, the lethal concentration of Zyklon B or HCN needed to kill within minutes is 300 parts per million (ppm) which is in fact 300mg per liter of air and because of its vapor pressure, it can easily attain this. The shipments of Zyklon B to Auschwitz/Birkenau were 7.5 tons (1942), 12 tons (1943) and 6 tons (1944) for a total of 25.5 tons of Zyklon B (HCN). I found a few sources but it seems the Dachau gas chamber was 24'x18'x6' and others were about the same being 20'x20'x6'. Using the smaller (which is not in a revisionist's favor), you get 2400 cubic feet which translates to 67968 liters of air in each gas chamber. In a 20'x20' room, an extremely generous estimate of 400 people, that is 1 person per square foot would be the max that could fit. The volume of 400 people that are about 70kg average would be about 50L per person, thus 50L x 400 = 20 000L, so now the total room air volume is 67968-20000 = 47968 Liters. In order to obtain the 300ppm to kill people, for the 47968L number would be 14.39kg of Zyklon B. 14390000mg/47968L = 300ppm. So now we have 14.39kg per gassing. If 1 ton = 907.185kg, then there are 50.4 gassing per ton of Zyklon B, for a total for 25.5 tons of 1285.2 gassings. Thus using the very generous number of people I have given of 400 people per gassing x 1285.2 gassings = 514080 people gassed. NOT 1 MILLION and definately not 4 million. If we were to be realistic, the 400 people would be brought down to 180-200 per gassing giving only 231336-257040 people.

 

I have only recently begun to see the Holocaust through this new perspective, have we been brainwashed by the media and has history been distorted, written by the victors? Any thoughts, please.

[ydoaPs]

didn't the Germans take precise records? what did they say?

[Astrid]

http://www.overthrow.com/images/RedCross-holocaust.jpg

 

It's interesting you should ask that, there is much debate concerning this. The above picture is a record that proves that six million Jewish people did not die. However, there is a counter-attack to this, I suggest you read this if you are interesting in it: http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html An excerpt from this: for forced labor.

 

Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.) In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date? As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.

 

The rebuttal to this can be found here: http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/english1011.html

 

It's a lot to read though, lol

[ydoaPs]

it's nice how they put survivor in quotes. grrrrrrrrrr.

[LucidDreamer]

I have very vivid memories of documentaries shown to me as a child about the Holocaust. The film showed dozens of cadaverous Jews staring ahead, as piles of bodies were uncovered. I remember being shocked at the bodies and surprised that these men, who lacked any kind of muscle or fat, were still alive in the state that they were in. There are still thousands of Jews that bear the numbers of the concentration camps. There are still thousands of WW2 veterans that back up the story of the Holocaust. There are numerous photos, films, buildings, and documents that prove the Holocaust is a fact.

 

I followed your links and was amazed at what I found. The Zundelsite is the most incredible example of anti-Semitism that I have ever seen. Actually, some of sites that the zundelsite linked to were even worse. I must ask you a few questions. If the holocaust never happened then why is there so much evidence? If the holocaust never happened then why do so many veterans collaborate it? If gas chambers were so impossible why did the U.S. use them in its executions? If this was really about revealing the truth about the Holocaust then why is the website filled with hate-articles about the Jews that have nothing to do with the Holocaust?

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/israeli_terror/

link from zundelsite: http://www.ihr.org/

[budullewraagh]

i think the two most overlooked parts of the holocaust are the fact that total casualties (the accepted number) were upwards of 13 million (a little less than half were jews) and stalin's purge, which happened at the same time.

[Astrid]

I am truly disappointed that no one has any opposing views on the matter or was not able to debunk anything I posted, as I am still researchign this I think that concludes that six million Jews did not die and that it was all propaganda. In answer to your question LucidDreamer, no one is saying that it never happened, rather I am saying that did happen but not to the extent we think it did.

 

At this point, the reader probably wants to know why an analysis that concludes that "gas chambers" did not exist in certain camps is suddenly discontinued as soon as, for example, Auschwitz is discussed. Why, on one hand, is the critical spirit awakened, and then, on the other hand, is it allowed to collapse into lethargy? After all, as far as the "gas chamber" of Ravensbrück is concerned, we have many points of "evidence" and "undeniable eyewitness accounts," beginning with repeated and extensive eyewitness accounts by Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier or Germaine Tillion.

 

It gets even better. Several years after the war, before both British and French tribunals, the camp officials of Ravensbrück (Suhren, Schwarzhuber and Treite) repeatedly confessed to the existence of a "gas chamber" in their camp. They even vaguely described its operation. Eventually, those who did not commit suicide were executed because of this alleged "gas chamber." The same "confessions" were given prior to their deaths by Ziereis for Mauthausen (Austria) and by Kramer for Struthof-Natzweiler (Alsace).

 

Today, one can see the alleged "gas chamber" of Struthof-Natzweiler and in the same place one can also read the unbelievable "confession" of Kramer. This "gas chamber," which is designated as an "historical monument," is a complete fraud. The slightest amount of critical spirit will be sufficient to convince oneself that a gassing in this small room, without any sealing whatsoever, would have been a catastrophe for the executioner as well as for the people in the vicinity. In order to make this "gas chamber" (which is guaranteed to be "in its original condition") believable, someone has gone so for as to clumsily knock a hole into the thin wall with a chisel, and thereby break four tiles. The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas? How could Kramer have prevented the gas from coming back out the hole? How could he see his victims from a hole which would have let him see no more than half the room? How did he ventilate the room before opening the rudimentary door, made from rough-cut lumber? Perhaps one must ask the civil engineering firm in Saint-Michel sur-Meurthe (Vosges), which after the war altered the place which today is presented to visitors "in its original condition"?

 

Even long after the war, prelates, university professors, and some ordinary citizens gave eyewitness descriptions regarding the terrible reality of the "gas chambers" of Buchenwald and Dachau. With regard to Buchenwald, the "gas chamber" gradually disappeared from the minds of the people who had previously maintained that there was one in this camp.

 

Dachau

With regard to Dachau, the situation is different. After it had been firmly established for example by His Eminence Bishop Piguet, the bishop of Clermont-Ferrand that the "gas chamber" had been especially useful in gassing Polish priests,3 eventually the following official explanation came to pass:

 

This gas chamber, whose construction had been started in 1942, was still not completed in 1945 when the camp was liberated. No one could have been gassed in it.

 

The little room, which visitors are told is a "gas chamber," is in reality completely harmless and, while all sorts of construction plans are available for "Baracke X" (the crematorium and vicinity), one cannot determine upon what basis or technical explanation one can claim that this structure is an "unfinished gas chamber."

 

Broszat

No official historical institute has done more than the Institut für Zeitgeschichte in Munich to make the myth of the "gas chambers" believable. Since 1972 its director has been Dr. Martin Broszat. As a member of this Institute since 1955, Dr. Broszat became famous as a result of his (partial!) publication in 1958 of the confessions that Rudolf Höss (former Commandant of Auschwitz) is supposed to have written in a communist prison before he was hanged. However, on 19 August 1960, this historian had to tell his amazed countrymen that there had never been mass gassings in the entire Old Reich (Germany's 1937 frontiers), but rather, only in a small number of selected places, especially in occupied Poland, including Auschwitz and Birkenau but not Majdanek. This startling news was given in a simple letter to the editor which was published in the weekly magazine Die Zeit (19 August 1960, page 16). The title was quite misleading and restrictive: Keine Vergasung in Dachau (No Gassing at Dachau) instead of Keine Massenvergasung im Altreich (No Mass Gassing in the Old Reich).4 In order to support this contention, Dr. Broszat provided not the slightest piece of evidence. Today [1978], eighteen years after his letter, neither he nor any of his colleagues has provided the slightest explanation for this affirmation. It would be highly interesting to learn:

 

How does Dr. Broszat know that "gas chambers" in the Old Reich were frauds?

How does he know that the "gas chambers" in Poland are genuine?

Why do the "proofs," the "certainties," and the "eyewitness accounts" concerning the concentration camps in the west suddenly have no value, while the "proofs," "certainties," and "eyewitness accounts" concerning the camps in Poland Communist territory still remain true?

As if by some tacit agreement, not a single recognized historian has raised these questions. How often in the "history of history" has one relied upon the claims of a single historian? 5

 

German Camps in Occupied Poland

Let us now examine the "gas chambers" in Poland.

 

For proof that the "gas chambers" in Belzec or Treblinka really existed, one is asked to rely essentially upon the statement of Kurt Gerstein. This document from a member of the SS, who allegedly committed suicide in 1945 in the prison of Cherche-Midi in Paris, abounds with so many absurdities that in the eyes of historians it has for a long time already been thoroughly discredited.6 Furthermore, this statement has never been made public, not even in the documents of the Nuremberg tribunal, except in an unusable form (with truncations, falsifications, and rewritings). The actual document has never been available with its absurd appendices (French "draft" or the "supplements" in German).

 

Regarding Majdanek, a visit to the actual site is absolutely necessary. It is even more convincing than a visit to Struthof-Natzweiler, if that is possible. Over this question I will publish additional information.

 

With regard to Auschwitz and Birkenau, one must rely essentially on the "Memoirs" 7 of Rudolf Höss, which were prepared under the supervision of his Polish captors. At the actual site, one can only find a "reconstructed" room (Auschwitz I) and ruins (Auschwitz II or Birkenau).

 

An execution with gas has nothing to do with a suicidal or accidental suffocation. In the case of an execution, the executioner and his team must not be exposed to the slightest danger. For their executions, the Americans employ hydrocyanic acid in a sophisticated way, and that only in a small, hermetically-sealed chamber. Afterwards, the gas is exhausted from the chamber and neutralized.

 

For this reason, one must ask how, for example in the case of Auschwitz II or Birkenau, one could bring 2,000 people into a room measuring 210 square meters in area, and then in this highly crowded situation throw in the very strong pesticide Zyklon B, and then immediately after the deaths of the victims let a work crew without any gas masks enter the room in order to take out the bodies which had been thoroughly saturated with cyanide.

 

Two documents8 from the German industrial archives which were registered by the Americans at Nuremberg tell us that the Zyklon B had a strong tendency to adhere to surfaces and could not be removed from an ordinary room with a strong ventilator, but only by natural aeration for almost 24 hours. Additional documents may be found only at the site in the Auschwitz Museum archives, which were never described elsewhere, but which show that this room of 210 square meters, which is today in a dilapidated condition, was only a very simple mortuary, which (in order to protect it against heat) had been located underground, and which was provided with only a single door which served as both an entrance and an exit. 9

 

Concerning the crematoria of Auschwitz, there is just as there is generally for the entire camp an overabundance of documents and invoices down to the last penny. However, concerning the "gas chambers" there is nothing: no contract for construction, not even a study, nor an order for materials, nor a plan, nor an invoice, nor even a photograph. In a hundred war crimes trials, nothing of the sort was ever produced.

http://ihr.org/leaflets/gaschambers.shtml

__________________

 

I think I will take this to the debate forum, and I see the last person to post rather agreed with me. I suppose we as a people are changing our perceptions of history...

[LucidDreamer]

If you offer the challenge I will take it. I'm just pasting a section from another website about gas chambers for now (kind of busy) but I will go all out if you really want to debate this. BTW, how many people do you claim died in the Holocaust?

 

"Death camp gas chambers were the primary means of execution used against the Jews during the Holocaust. The Nazis issued a directive implementing large-scale gas chambers in the fall of 1941 but, by then, procedures facilitating mass murder, including the utilization of smaller gas chambers, were already in practice. Before their use in death camps, gas chambers were central to Hitler's "eugenics" pro, gram. Between January 1940 and August 1941, 70,273 Germans - most of them physically handicapped or mentally ill - were gassed, 20-30 at a time, in hermetically shut chambers disguised as shower rooms.16

 

Meanwhile, mass shooting of Jews had been extensively practiced on the heels of Germany's Eastern campaign. But these actions by murder squads had become an increasingly unwieldy process by October 1941. Three directors of the genocide Erhard Wetzel, head of the Racial-Policy Office: Alfred Rosenberg, consultant on Jewish affairs for the Occupied Eastern Territories, and Victor Brack, deputy director of the Chancellory, met at the time with Adolf Eichmann to discuss the use of gas chambers in the genocide program.17 Thereafter, two technical advisors for the euthanasia gas chambers, Kriminalkommissar Christian Wirth and a Dr. Kallmeyer, were sent to the East to begin construction of mass gas chambers.18 Physicians who had implemented the euthanasia program were also transferred.

 

Mobile gassing vans, using the exhaust fumes of diesel engines to kill passengers, were used to kill Jews at Chelmno and Treblinka - as well as other sites, not all of them concentration camps - starting in November 1941.19 At least 320,000 Chelmno prisoners, most of them Jews, were killed by this method; a total of 870,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka using gas vans and diesel-powered gas chambers.20

 

Gas chambers were installed and operated at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau from September 3, 1941, when the first experimental gassing took place at Auschwitz, until November 1944.22 Working with chambers measuring an average 225 square feet, the Nazis forced to their deaths 700 to 800 men, women and children at a time.22 Two-thirds of this program was completed in 1943-44, and at its height it accounted for as many as 20,000 victims per day.23 Authorities have estimated that these gas chambers accounted for the deaths of approximately 2E to 3 million Jews.

 

Holocaust-denial attacks on this record of mass murder intensified following the end of the Cold War when it was reported that the memorial at Auschwitz was changed in 1991 to read that 1 million had died there, instead of 4 million as previously recorded. For Holocaust deniers, this change appeared to confirm arguments that historical estimates of Holocaust deaths had been deliberately exaggerated, and that scholars were beginning to "retreat" in the face of "revisionist" assertions. Thus, for example, Willis Carto wrote in the February 6, 1995, issue of The Spotlight, the weekly tabloid of his organization, Liberty Lobby, that "All 'experts' until 1991 claimed that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz. This impossible figure was reduced in 1991... to 1.1 million.... The facts about deaths at Auschwitz, however... are still wrong. The Germans kept detailed records of Auschwitz deaths.... These show that no more than 120,000 persons of all religions and ethnicity died at Auschwitz during the war...."

 

In fact, Western scholars have never supported the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz; the basis of this Soviet estimate - an analysis of the capacity of crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau - has long been discredited. As early as 1952, Gerald Reitlinger, a British historian, had convincingly challenged this method of calculation. Using statistics compiled in registers for Himmler, he asserted that approximately 1 million people had died at Auschwitz; Raul Hilberg in 1961, and Yehuda Bauer in 1989, confirmed Reitlinger's estimate of Auschwitz victims. Each of these scholars, nonetheless, has recognized that nearly 6 million Jews were killed overall during the Holocaust.24 Polish authorities were therefore responding to long-accepted Western scholarship, further confirmed subsequently by documents released in post-Soviet Russia; the cynical allegations of "Holocaust revisionism" played no part in their decision."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html

[DreamLord]

I notice, Astrid, that most of the info you've gotten is from one website. A site, which I would like to add, that does not seem very reliable at all. Get stories from both sides. It tends to be better. And the Nazis did not just use gas to kill people. They were shot, burned alive, or met another gruesome end. Perhaps some of the worst of which were those who suffered at the hands of Dr. Mangele. And it wasn't just Jews who died. There were many others.

 

How can you deny so many stories from those who survived that awful time? Those who lived through the camps?

 

And why do you put gas chambers in quotation marks? Do you not beleive that they were real? Have you ever seen one of the camps? I mean, actually been there. Have you been to Poland and seen Auschwitz? Maybe you should. Look through there and then tell me that the gas chambers never existed. Then decide about these "lies" you say people just "exaggerated". You couldn't if you ever actually saw one of those camps. Trust me, you could never deny what happened if you actually saw one of the camps.

[Quixix]

Does it really matter if the correct number is 6 million or perhaps "only" 3 million?. Does it change the meaning of history and the intentions of an organization?

The amount only proves the degree of efficiency, the goals are clear.

As dreamlord notes, your use of quotation marks is very peculiar. It is used as if to throw doubt on something without need to discuss it.

I have never visited the extermination camps used by the nazis, but I do have several friends who have, and have brought photos back, photos that were not doctored or touched up, taken by amateur fotographers.

Are you trying to wash someones conscience?

[sazdreamer]

Six Million Jews Did Die In The Holocaust - It Was The First Time Ever For Innocent Peope To Be Systematically Killed For No Reason. It Wasn't Just Jews, It Was Anyone Who Was Different(gypsies, Blacks, Mentally Ill Or Anyone Who Opposed The Nazis), They Were All Killed

[Pangloss]

Wow.... doesn't it hurt your fingers to use initial caps on every word like that? That would kill me....

 

BTW, it was hardly the first time people were "systematically killed for no reason".

[-Demosthenes-]

Leaders in the military knew that this was a possibility. Thats why there are thousands of people lead through the camps to witness what had happened. Thousands of people saw it. As far as numbers go, theses soldiers don't know, but thousands know and saw that it did happen, and on a large scale.

[ku]

Does it really matter if the correct number is 6 million or perhaps "only" 3 million?. Does it change the meaning of history and the intentions of an organization?

I think what matters with the Holocaust is the big picture, that so many were killed simply for being Jews. The subject is taught in schools today I presume in the hope that history won't repeat itself. But after 911 there has sadly been a resurgence in anti-Semitism, mainly in the Arab world. Adolf Hitler's book Mein Kampf is most rapidly selling in the Middle-East today.

[atinymonkey]

But after 911 there has sadly been a resurgence in anti-Semitism, mainly in the Arab world. Adolf Hitler's book Mein Kampf[/i'] is most rapidly selling in the Middle-East today.

 

Source? What links the Middle East to New York? Were book sales affected in America after the west bank peace treaty?

[PhDP]

I am truly disappointed that no one has any opposing views on the matter or was not able to debunk anything I posted, as I am still researchign this I think that concludes that six million Jews did not die and that it was all propaganda.

 

The very fact that you are using informations from Zundel's website is probably not giving you lots of credibility, he's a clown, and a racist one.

[ku]

Source? What links the Middle East to New York? Were book sales affected in America after the west bank peace treaty?

I was referring to Mein Kampf for sale, in Arabic, although I think this is referring specifically to sales of Hitler's book in England's Arab population. It is a pity though that after Jews went through Nazism they now deal with Islamofacism. Out of the frying pan and into the fire, it seems. Remember that you can't prove something by giving a source. I could easily publish something by myself and then quote it as "proof."

[atinymonkey]

Remember that you can't prove something by giving a source. I could easily publish something by myself and then quote it as "proof."

 

 

No, that was a good enough source to underpin your point. I'm aware that the Palestinian Isamic community has been recycling Nazi propaganda for years, going so far as to teach children the Nazi views on the Jews. However, it's just a Palestinian problem and is not prevelent in the Middle East. Also, it was not triggered by 9 / 11 and has been a problem since the 1950's.

 

I think you generalized a little to much , but it's an interesting point.

[In My Memory]

My irony meter has exploded! I suppose it was just too much that this thread could be reasonably titled "Lies and propaganda or the truth" followed by links to a prominent white nationalist website.

 

I have too little patience with racists, so I will choose to humbly link to the Nizkor Holocaust Educational Resource, then be on my way.

[Sayonara]

Wow.... doesn't it hurt your fingers to use initial caps on every word like that? That would kill me....

S/he didn't. S/he typed it in block capitals (i.e. shouted it at us), and the forum dropped it down to capitalised text to protect our eyes.

[Pangloss]

Oh cool, that's a nice forum feature. Thanks for passing that on, I had no idea.

[[Tycho?]]

didn't the Germans take precise records? what did they say?

 

The Germans were incredibly meticulous with their records. They kept records of everything, they had a rediculous amount of paper and film and everything else after the war.

[ku]

The official SF debate about the Holocaust is at http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5707

[blackout]

I notice, Astrid, that most of the info you've gotten is from one website. A site, which I would like to add, that does not seem very reliable at all. Get stories from both sides. It tends to be better. And the Nazis did not just use gas to kill people. They were shot, burned alive, or met another gruesome end. Perhaps some of the worst of which were those who suffered at the hands of Dr. Mangele. And it wasn't just Jews who died. There were many others.

I agree with you, not all the jews died in the gas chambers, I believe that a rather big quantity died in trains or in work camps (they haven't eat enough etc.).