War, Casualties, Saddam, Bush, Etc.

[-Demosthenes-]

first' date=' let me state that i agree that bush is the worst thing that has happened to the world since stalin.

[/quote']

haha, that's so ridiculous.

[budullewraagh]

what event/person has been worse?

[john5746]

what event/person has been worse?

 

Mao Tze Dong

Kim Il Sung

Leonid Brezhnev

Pol Pot

Idi Amin

Slobodan Milosevic

Saddam Hussein

Mobutu Sese Seko

 

to name a few...

[budullewraagh]

i highly question that. if you divide the deaths each of those are responsible for by the number of years they had power, and compared to the same figure with bush, you'd be astonished.

[blike]

Is that the formula to calculate evilness

 

(deaths responsible for) / (years in power)

 

I just want to be clear on this: You're saying GWBush is worse than Saddam?

[budullewraagh]

not quite, but you can make a decent comparison of deadliness. and yes i am saying george walker bush is worse than saddam hussein. hey, he's already killed more iraqis than hussein did, revoked our most basic civil liberties, plunged a surplus into record deficits (hmm, even more so than the bloody depression!), failed to defend our nation and yes, started unjustified wars that the poor pay for in blood and the tax payers pay for with superfluous amounts of money.

[blike]

I'm trying to restrain my utter horror from the realization that the left of this country are so blinded by partisanship and rabid hatred for george w. bush that they lose the perspective and moral clarity to see evil for what it is. If evil were as simple as death counts then the Allies and Axis could be compared as equally evil entities.

 

And yet here you sit, claiming that Bush and Saddam are equals because in addition to the death counts, Bush took our rights away and spent our money. But hey, 50,000 kurds don't matter right? Did someone say rights? Civil Liberties? Want to talk about rights? Perhaps you should spend a little more time getting to know Mr. Hussein.

 

Failed to defend our nation? What? When is the last time we were attacked on our soil? Oh, 9/11. Seems like he's done just fine to me. There will be another attack, it's only a matter of when. But as the 9/11 commission stated, we're safer now than we were before, but thats hardly anything.

 

Hey, just because Saddam killed and opressed more people doesn't make him a bad man. Besides, liberating Iraqi and Afghani people, while securing safety for our nation and other nations in the region, while dismantling the majority of Al-Queada's leadership and organization, while overturning two horrible regimes, while injecting a sense of freedom into a part of the world ruled by islamic fundamentalism, while rooting out terrorists, while giving 50 million people the right to choose their own leader is costing us too much money.

[bloodhound]

Altough I dont like Bush. I would like to say Bush is definitely THAT evil. or EVIL at all. With time my respect has grown for BUSH and Blair for the actions they took. If I was an american, it wouldnt be the war that put me off for voting for him. it would be his extreme domestic policies

[budullewraagh]

what do you like about bush's actions??

[budullewraagh]

in response to blike's post,

 

But hey, 50,000 kurds don't matter right?

apparently a few hundred thousand iraqis don't either, right?

Civil Liberties? Want to talk about rights? Perhaps you should spend a little more time getting to know Mr. Hussein.

the dead don't have rights either. think they have rights now? think again.

Failed to defend our nation?

yes, on september the 11th of 2001, we were attacked. bush is responsible for spending more vacation time in his first 8 months in office than any other president in their time in office (yes, even more than fdr who served 12 years). when told of a threat, clinton met with advisors daily and stopped an attack on LAX. when told of a threat, bush kept vacationing and never met with the advisors clinton had met with daily. the 9/11 commission really served very little purpose. their mission was to give everybody closure and take away all possibility for blame.

 

on a slight tangent, i would like to add that the pentagon was not attacked by a plane that day. see the link below for more information:

http://pages.infinit.net/noc/pentagon.swf

makes you wonder what happened.

 

more people

less, actually.

 

Besides, liberating Iraqi and Afghani people, while securing safety for our nation and other nations in the region, while dismantling the majority of Al-Queada's leadership and organization, while overturning two horrible regimes, while injecting a sense of freedom into a part of the world ruled by islamic fundamentalism, while rooting out terrorists, while giving 50 million people the right to choose their own leader is costing us too much money.

liberating? what do iraq and afghanistan look to you now? are there parks with green grass, fountains, and the like? no, there's millions of people scared to death that they'll be bombed or shot, while a tens of thousands have taken arms to GET US OUT. (a report found that above 95% of "terrorists" in iraq were actually just pissed off iraqi citizens with guns). we secured safety for NONE. look what happened to spain when they sent troops in. oops, terrorist attack on THEM. left and right, foreigners are being slain and governments are getting pissed off at the united states because it was the united states who drew them into this "war". ah and yes, we have killed some terrorists. guess what. apparently, we have pissed off some certain people by blowing up their homeland and golly, they've decided to take up arms for al-qaida. i'll say what i've been saying all along; it's one awful cycle: (this works for israel and the united states' respective policies)

1. person's house is blown up

2. person says "gee, that's just what i need. come home from work and my house is gone. golly, countries these days... oh, but there are my children and there is my wife. apparently my children and wife were out walking at the time. thank allah."

3. person and family have been barely alive for the last few days, living on the streets.

4. good ol' al-qaida (or hamas in the case of israel) comes driving up, says "hey, join us and i'll give your family shelter, food and an edjumucation."

5. patriach says "hmm, we could all just live on rodents and bugs, and finally die a most dishonourable death or i could potentially sacrifice myself and save my family. i think i'll choose the latter because the former sounds too bloody sad."

6. patriarch blows himself up, killing X people.

7. mother and children say "those bloody $#!@%)(&!"

8. children learn to hate the people who killed their father.

9. children join al-qaida/hamas in their early teen years.

 

injecting a sense of freedom

the dead don't have freedom. and, look around. where's the bloody freedom? their economy is dead. they have few natural resources. -> they are essentially dead, and quite pissed off.

[Sayonara]

Where does the figure of 50,000 Kurds come from?

[blike]

apparently a few hundred thousand iraqis don't either

Go ahead and try to substantiate that claim.

 

think they have rights now? think again.

They sure have a lot more than they did. Death is an unfortunate consequence of war. Don't start with "war is unjusitified because innocent people die" rhetoric.

 

yes, on september the 11th of 2001, we were attacked.

The majority of planning, preparation, and training took place under Clinton's watch. Don't even try to pin it on Bush. I see that you've preemptively shrugged off the 9/11 commission report, because it seems to have turned into the Bush-hater's worst enemy. Funny, it seemed to be hailed as the second coming of Christ by the left when tiny bits of information were leaked that worked in their favor.

 

on a slight tangent, i would like to add that the pentagon was not attacked by a plane that day. see the link below for more information:

So the flash movie has a few quotes of what seems to implicate it was a small plane that hit the pentagon (as opposed to your claim that 'no plane' hit the pentagon).

 

"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

 

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."

- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001

 

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."

- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

 

"'I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter who witnessed the crash. 'There is billowing black smoke.'"

- "America's Morning of Terror." ChannelOne.com, 2001

 

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

 

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

Don't forget the recovered black boxes, or the 184 bodies identified as passangers.

 

look what happened to spain when they sent troops in. oops, terrorist attack on THEM.

Suprise suprise, the terrorists don't want us in Iraq.

 

9. children join al-qaida/hamas in their early teen years.

Not all terrorists come from poor families. Just ask bin laden.

[blike]

Where does the figure of 50,000 Kurds come from?

Human Rights Watch.

[blike]

Just as a side note, this isn't personal budull, even though I tend to get a bit sarcastic once in awhile :} I just see things differently.

 

Edit: And we've strayed off topic. I'll split the thread when you respond.

[budullewraagh]

Go ahead and try to substantiate that claim.

with pleasure i will. the united nations stated before the war that as the united states was going to wage the war, around half a million iraqis would be killed. the morning after the first bombing in baghdad, there were estimates of 35,000 civilian casualties.

 

They sure have a lot more than they did. Death is an unfortunate consequence of war. Don't start with "war is unjusitified because innocent people die" rhetoric.

what "rights" do they have now that they lacked before? they are living in eternal fear, oppressive poverty and getting killed. i dont think that is justified.

 

The majority of planning, preparation, and training took place under Clinton's watch.

and clinton was working against it. let's go to the magical world of make-believe (mr rodgers' neighborhood). let's pretend mr mcfeely planned to blow up mr rodgers' neighbor with a pipe bomb and mr rodgers' knew about these plans. mr rodgers' ran after mr mcfeely, chasing him all through the neighborhood. imagine mr rodgers' being suddenly replaced by an ingnoramous with an absurdly large belt buckle and a 25 gallon hat who says "hmm, i think i'll make myself a sandwich and go vacation in the ranch because, hell, i frankly dont care what happens to my neighbor. oh man i love money!" and then he skips off riding his stick horse shouting "yeeehaw!" and shooting his "trusty six shooter" randomly off into the air.

 

yep, thats what happened.

 

with regard to the 9/11 report, it was only created to make bush look like less of a slacker.

 

with regard to your quotes:

the second source hadn't seen the crash. rather the second source assumed it was a plane since, hey, a plane had just hit the trade center, so it must be another plane and hey, she was told it was a plane that hit the pentagon, so it all makes sense,

right?

 

i am still undecided on the pentagon situation. if you look around for pictures, any pictures, you will see that the plane's parts are not there. huge wings don't just disappear in a flash of oxidation.

 

Suprise suprise, the terrorists don't want us in Iraq.

say, what a concept.

 

Not all terrorists come from poor families. Just ask bin laden.

right, but you know, these newer terrorists tend to come about the way i described.

 

don't you take this personal either. it's nothing personal, but it is a debate on our beliefs.

[Phi for All]

let's go to the magical world of make-believe (mr rodgers' neighborhood). let's pretend mr mcfeely planned to blow up mr rodgers' neighbor with a pipe bomb and mr rodgers' knew about these plans. mr rodgers' ran after mr mcfeely' date=' chasing him all through the neighborhood. imagine mr rodgers' being suddenly replaced by an ingnoramous with an absurdly large belt buckle and a 25 gallon hat who says "hmm, i think i'll make myself a sandwich and go vacation in the ranch because, hell, i frankly dont care what happens to my neighbor. oh man i love money!" and then he skips off riding his stick horse shouting "yeeehaw!" and shooting his "trusty six shooter" randomly off into the air.

 

yep, thats what happened.[/quote']I love that story! Don't forget the part where the pipe bomb goes off and Mr. Ingnoramous acts all surprised and gets his peeps to blame Mr. Rodgers for leaving him with such a crappy neighborhood!

[DreamLord]

I'd also point out that many American and coalition troops have died over in Iraq too. And that we went to war on false information. And that Bush went against the UN, seemingly in an attempt to get everyone to hate us. If that was his intent he's doind pretty darn good at it.

 

Also under Bush and his cabinet members' commands 1000s of Arabs in America have been detained for months without a reason. And now they are detaining Iraqis over in their country for no reason. Are things any better in Iraq? Not really.

 

Ah, and let's not forget the Saudis. The ones Bush and his father seem to be working so hard at keeping in power. Why? Becuase they give us oil? The Saudis also harbour terrorists. They were found to have a terrorist training camp. Why doesn't Bush do anything about these guys? Or does nobody care about evil dictators unless President Bush crusades against them?

[budullewraagh]

thanks; i try my hardest

[blike]

Magical world of make-believe indeed. Don't forget about the part where mr mcfeely was offered to mr. rogers more than once, but Mr. Rogers said no thanks. Instead, he hurled a few love missles that way. Also don't forget about the neighborhood commission report! 'It's only make-believe', they kept telling themselves.

 

Soon after, mr. ignoramous decided to chase mr. mcfeely all around the world! But nay, that was too much time and money, said the neighborhood, who just finished complaining about his complacence.

[blike]

The Saudis also harbour terrorists. They were found to have a terrorist training camp.

 

And then what did they do about it?

[Sayonara]

Soon after, mr. ignoramous decided to chase mr. mcfeely all around the world! But nay, that was too much time and money, said the neighborhood, who just finished complaining about his complacence.

Well you know, he did run through their houses breaking stuff.

[blike]

with pleasure i will. the united nations stated before the war that as the united states was going to wage the war, around half a million iraqis would be killed. the morning after the first bombing in baghdad, there were estimates of 35,000 civilian casualties.

 

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[budullewraagh]

the united nations is just a bit more credible than iraqbodycount.net

[blike]

the united nations is just a bit more credible than iraqbodycount.net

 

Not particularly, but for the sake of argument:

 

"the united nations stated before the war that as the united states was going to wage the war, around half a million iraqis would be killed."

 

They were estimating before hand and they were wrong. I challenge you to find me one report by the UN preferably (or by any other source really, because you won't find it) that puts the Iraqi civilian body count over 20,000 [post-attack count, not some pre-war speculation].

[budullewraagh]

They were estimating before hand and they were wrong.

and bush was willing to kill that many iraqis because, hey, who cares about them?

 

how much work do you really think that people have been doing finding the dead in iraq?

 

http://www.harpers.org/UnitedNations.html

http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/252

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=17493

http://www.un.org/News/ossg/sg/index.shtml

text of the actual resolution:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/08/resolution.text/