Preventing Volcanic Eruptions

[questionposter]

Before we start attempting to prevent volcanic explosions we might want to give some very serious thought to whether volcanic explosions in some way serve to protect and renew the ecosphere upon which life (all life, not just human life) depends. The processes that take place within Earth are much more than just inconveniences to human beings (who myopically perceive themselves as the center of all existence).

 

That probably doesn't matter to world governments, even if what your saying is true, which I think it is.

[john122]

We are stuck with what these mechanisms bring. In one sense we are passengers on the roller coaster of global climate change and even to pretend we can be preventing climate change is just a little crazy.

[attriti0n]

Has anyone else considered the purely theoretical idea of using space-based kinetic weapons to attempt a "controlled" release of pressure from any size volcano (rather than just limiting discussion to super-volcano scale)? I really dislike the word "controlled" in this context, but the ultimate goal would be something like that. It would be experimental before being anything like "controlled".

 

Drilling does not seem practical (even in comparison to the idea above, which I freely stipulate to be grandiose) because of depth and stability issues. Nukes do not seem useful for this purpose either as there isn't a great way to focus the energy where you need it, and you would end up (if it even worked at all) with the radioactive aftermath becoming part of a potential ash-cloud.

 

Perhaps one kinetic penetrator from space could not make the depth, but continual accurate hits seem plausible -- at least in my head, right now.

 

Large kinetic penetrators (tungsten or DU) are heavy and certainly difficult to orbit in one piece, but given time, perhaps this could be done in pieces. The US space programs still have a decent heavy-lift capacity.

 

So, your basic telephone-pole sized rod dropped from space and moving at Mach 10-ish -- with some ablative device to keep it from burning up and some means of guidance -- that's got to penetrate fairly well. The effective energy potential of that size device is what, 9-10kt? The energy is certainly heading in the right direction. Not sure if this scale is large enough, so assume it can be scaled up or down as needed. You don't have to penetrate the magma chamber proper, only create a weaker area and let the pressure do the rest. If this can work, the "control" issue is still left to be worked out.

 

Feel free to shoot the idea down, I just wanted to put it out there before I forgot -- you never know, right? I am not married to the idea, so it's fair game for anyone who thinks it is bad -- you won't hurt my feelings -- just shoot it down with science.

 

I'm not sure how the same idea might apply to attempts to relieve tectonic stress, but I might as well mention it now.

Edited January 3, 2013 by attriti0n

[Moontanman]

Has anyone else considered the purely theoretical idea of using space-based kinetic weapons to attempt a "controlled" release of pressure from any size volcano (rather than just limiting discussion to super-volcano scale)? I really dislike the word "controlled" in this context, but the ultimate goal would be something like that. It would be experimental before being anything like "controlled".

 

Drilling does not seem practical (even in comparison to the idea above, which I freely stipulate to be grandiose) because of depth and stability issues. Nukes do not seem useful for this purpose either as there isn't a great way to focus the energy where you need it, and you would end up (if it even worked at all) with the radioactive aftermath becoming part of a potential ash-cloud.

 

Perhaps one kinetic penetrator from space could not make the depth, but continual accurate hits seem plausible -- at least in my head, right now.

 

Large kinetic penetrators (tungsten or DU) are heavy and certainly difficult to orbit in one piece, but given time, perhaps this could be done in pieces. The US space programs still have a decent heavy-lift capacity.

 

So, your basic telephone-pole sized rod dropped from space and moving at Mach 10-ish -- with some ablative device to keep it from burning up and some means of guidance -- that's got to penetrate fairly well. The effective energy potential of that size device is what, 9-10kt? The energy is certainly heading in the right direction. Not sure if this scale is large enough, so assume it can be scaled up or down as needed. You don't have to penetrate the magma chamber proper, only create a weaker area and let the pressure do the rest. If this can work, the "control" issue is still left to be worked out.

 

Feel free to shoot the idea down, I just wanted to put it out there before I forgot -- you never know, right? I am not married to the idea, so it's fair game for anyone who thinks it is bad -- you won't hurt my feelings -- just shoot it down with science.

 

I'm not sure how the same idea might apply to attempts to relieve tectonic stress, but I might as well mention it now.

 

 

What you suggest might work but I suggest that the effects of such impact would be similar to if not worse than the volcano it's self...

[attriti0n]

Yes, it's the "control" problem. But setting that aside, I am curious primarily whether or not this idea can achieve the requisite penetration first -- then control as the next problem to overcome is, well, yes, important...

 

At any rate, yes, I agree that the energy needed to reach depth with a kinetic penetrator may be too much to ever achieve anything like "reliable" control. And, in the "prevent eruptions" area, it might be a non-starter.

 

What would control look like? It could be relieving a volcano that is about to blow, thats the first and most obvious one that we are thinking of here. It could also just be venting large ones before they can pressurize. Perhaps instead this could be used to relieve the pressure of smaller magma pipes in areas around a larger more dangerous one... Anything else in this vein?

 

Perhaps "control" is as simple as the time and place of your choosing? People could know when to evacuate, where to go, etc.... ("Yes, we caused the eruption, but this time 1/5 of the population of Iceland didn't get killed!")

 

Also, is this idea (space-based kinetic penetrators to relieve or trigger volcanos) an old idea?

Edited January 3, 2013 by attriti0n

[Moontanman]

Yes, it's the "control" problem. But setting that aside, I am curious primarily whether or not this idea can achieve the requisite penetration first -- then control as the next problem to overcome is, well, yes, important...

 

At any rate, yes, I agree that the energy needed to reach depth with a kinetic penetrator may be too much to ever achieve anything like "reliable" control. And, in the "prevent eruptions" area, it might be a non-starter.

 

What would control look like? It could be relieving a volcano that is about to blow, thats the first and most obvious one that we are thinking of here. It could also just be venting large ones before they can pressurize. Perhaps instead this could be used to relieve the pressure of smaller magma pipes in areas around a larger more dangerous one... Anything else in this vein?

 

Perhaps "control" is as simple as the time and place of your choosing? People could know when to evacuate, where to go, etc.... ("Yes, we caused the eruption, but this time 1/5 of the population of Iceland didn't get killed!")

 

Also, is this idea (space-based kinetic penetrators to relieve or trigger volcanos) an old idea?

 

 

I'm not so sure it is an old idea but the idea of kinetic energy weapons is old, in fact if one country were in reasonable control of the inner solar system and no one else was, striking the earth in a particular spot with a giant hunk of iron nickle asteroid would be relatively easy to do...

[attriti0n]

I'd heard of "rods of god" -- was hoping this might be a more productive use (in comparison to, say, war) for the idea.I'm trying to find at least a crude way to gauge the penetration capability of this now. Sure would be a lot easier mathematically if it was just rolled homogenous armor plate to go through!

 

--

 

Found it :"Neal Stephenson's novel Anathem contains an incident in which an orbiting spaceship attacks a planet with a rod, striking and activating a dormant volcano and causing it to destroy everything in the vicinity downhill."

 

This is obviously how it got into my head -- it's just been a while since I've read it.

Edited January 3, 2013 by attriti0n

[Ophiolite]

I suspect that the proposal would not work. I think the determining factor on the eruption/no eruption decision is not the presence of a pathway, but the volume of magma, its ditribution and the pressure it is under. Any pathway created by the technique would rapidly close up if these other conditions were not met - and they would only be met when the volcano was already perilously close to a 'conventional' eruption.

 

I cannot demonstrate this point with maths or mdoesl, but intuitively such understanding as I have of vulcanicity leads me to that conclusion.

[attriti0n]

I suspect that the proposal would not work. I think the determining factor on the eruption/no eruption decision is not the presence of a pathway, but the volume of magma, its ditribution and the pressure it is under. Any pathway created by the technique would rapidly close up if these other conditions were not met - and they would only be met when the volcano was already perilously close to a 'conventional' eruption.

 

I cannot demonstrate this point with maths or mdoesl, but intuitively such understanding as I have of vulcanicity leads me to that conclusion.

So, it may be possible only in theory, but even then timing would be everything... That makes sense to me. I can accept that it isn't workable.

 

I guess I am just not satisfied in hearing things like, "it is a matter of when and not if", coupled with "science can only hope to provide a better warning", and the inevitable "all we can do is prepare our response."... Surely I am not alone in this.

Edited January 14, 2013 by attriti0n

[SamBridge]

From what i understand, large volcanic eruptions occur when the preassure below the surface is too great and the volcano blows it's top and spews out huge amounts of matter.

 

My question is, why can't we drill into the chamber and slowly release the preassure? The side benefit of this would be that we could use this preassure to generate huge amounts of electricity. So what's the problem?

No it's not enough to relieve the pressure, the sheer volume of the number of holes it would take to relieve the pressure is essentially equivalent to blowing a volcanoe up, which of course would just accelerate the eruption if it's too far into the process of building up pressure.

[JohnCli]

Volcano-------------------------------Drill

---+--- l

--++-- ll

-+++-- <----Magma chamber ll <----Tunnel

--++-- ll

---+---______________________lll <-----EM Tunnel

I________________________[ ]_______________________________ <--- new route

I <-----Magma chamber

 

 

Funnel in some Plasma Lined EM Drill (Remember ITER?) to keep magma away from the drill/just laser i through you puncture/thinned the Tunnel/chamber let it do it's work?

Another Theory

 

Volcano BIG RFG

v

v v

v v v

Chamber Rock = Molten Rock = new path

 

 

XD

[SamBridge]

Volcano-------------------------------Drill

---+--- l

--++-- ll

-+++-- <----Magma chamber ll <----Tunnel

--++-- ll

---+---______________________lll <-----EM Tunnel

I________________________[ ]_______________________________ <--- new route

I <-----Magma chamber

 

 

Funnel in some Plasma Lined EM Drill (Remember ITER?) to keep magma away from the drill/just laser i through you puncture/thinned the Tunnel/chamber let it do it's work?

Another Theory

 

Volcano BIG RFG

v

v v

v v v

Chamber Rock = Molten Rock = new path

 

 

XD

To "keep magma away" would require enormous amounts of energy to cancel out the unimaginable amounts of pressure it would put on the drill, and even before that the drill would have to be made out of a material that could resist the heat.

[JohnCli]

umm pretty much the material use they will use to produce the reactor for ITER project is very heat resistant...The main goal of ITER is to create an environment that can handle extreme heat /pressure and magnetism to sustain a FULL nuclear Fusion Reaction

Plus why not just Funnel in some salt water to make underground cracks then use an RFG to burn the crack and melt them?

[JohnCli]

and make a new path ?

[Moontanman]

I think some are forgetting the scale of what is being considered. Volcanoes erupt from the ocean floor under thousands of feet of water and make it to the surface, often quite explosively... adding water would be less than useless. Drilling a hole to relieve pressure? magma domes can be many miles across, not gonna make a difference...

[JohnCli]

I'm not adding water directly to the magma...

 

I think some are forgetting the scale of what is being considered. Volcanoes erupt from the ocean floor under thousands of feet of water and make it to the surface, often quite explosively... adding water would be less than useless. Drilling a hole to relieve pressure? magma domes can be many miles across, not gonna make a difference...

 

Funnel in the salt water and use an RFG to make the water soften a new route

 

RFG =Radio Frequency Generator

 

Remember that asian guy who made salt water as a fuel for fire by using radio waves to burn the salt water by disrupting the bonds?

 

as for the length why nor use a laser? thought it will be costly but hell...a life has no price

[SamBridge]

umm pretty much the material use they will use to produce the reactor for ITER project is very heat resistant...The main goal of ITER is to create an environment that can handle extreme heat /pressure and magnetism to sustain a FULL nuclear Fusion Reaction

 

Plus why not just Funnel in some salt water to make underground cracks then use an RFG to burn the crack and melt them?

A nuclear reactor isn't the best shape for a drill.

 

 

The problem is that some big volcanoes exist at high altitudes or are in the middle of some continent. Funneling water into them would first require a way to transport that much water, and I doubt everyone is going to be giant irrigation canals thousands of miles long, and then the water would have to be pored in after some kind of hole was made, which if it's too small it won't do anything because the water will vaporize before hitting the magma chamber, but if it's too big it will end up just accelerating the eruption.

Edited January 16, 2013 by SamBridge

[JohnCli]

*face palm*

 

I'm not talking about cooling the chamber...what I'm saying is why not Frack a weaker route for the magma and while you shoot the pressurized salt water you turn the rfg on to make faya (fire) and help weaken a better route

[SamBridge]

*face palm*

 

I'm not talking about cooling the chamber...what I'm saying is why not Frack a weaker route for the magma and while you shoot the pressurized salt water you turn the rfg on to make faya (fire) and help weaken a better route

Your idea is to make a sort of "inlet" or a tunnel that leads to the ocean right? Yeah, that could release the pressure too much and accelerate the eruption, and in fact using any large amount of water might make it worse because there will be even more pressure due to the vaporization of all the ocean water. The best thing we can do is prepare and some ways and try and contain the gas as best we can if it's possible, there's no easy way out of it.

Edited January 18, 2013 by SamBridge

[Enthalpy]

attriti0n, on 03 Jan 2013 - 20:08, said:

 

Large kinetic penetrators (tungsten or DU) are heavy and certainly difficult to orbit in one piece, but given time, perhaps this could be done in pieces.

 

---------------

 

Easy. Shoot many smaller penetrators, kept individual from the beginning to the end. Say, 20t at launch so they fit on a truck, 5t and 5km/s at impact. Then, each pierces like 20m rock depth. Makes a cylindrical hole that moves less material.

 

You'll need quite a few penetrators, especially since they won't fit in the existing hole over several km depth.

 

Such weapons are perfect against big warships, whose era is hence over. Against nuclear power plants, as well.

 

To reach a magna chamber, I suppose other methods are more effective. Shoot a round (not that size nor speed) down the hole, remove the debris? The limit is that you have to cement the hole or it collapses.

 

---------------

 

Nizmo, did you put some figures on the amount of material to be removed, and if melting it, the amount of heat? This would bring us further. Comparison with energies available to Mankind would sort away many methods.

[SamBridge]

Drilling to many holes just makes too much pressure come out at once, which is basically equivalent to an eruption, otherwise if will leak it too slowly to matter if the holes are too small.

[JohnCli]

Then why not make a controlled eruption ?

[Enthalpy]

One known limit of controlling natural disasters is not technology, but lawyers.

 

That is, if a politician agrees to act against a disaster, he'll get little recognition for the houses he helped save, but gets lawsuits for the houses destroyed because of the action.

 

This happened in Italy where trenches were successfully digged to deviate lava flows. They work, but politicians now dislike to order them.

[Ophiolite]

Then why not make a controlled eruption ?

Because, as has been pointed out more than once in this thread you can't. The clue is in the word eruption. You cannot drill a sufficient number of holes to penetrate the magam chamber.

You cannot drill any hole that will penetrate the magma chamber and remain open. You cannot prevent magma solidifying within the hole you have drilled. The list goes on. This is not just an impractical suggestion, this is an impossible suggestion with any realistically projected technology.

[JohnCli]

People thought it was impossible for a man to travel to the moon...nothing is impossible for science

Because, as has been pointed out more than once in this thread you can't. The clue is in the word eruption. You cannot drill a sufficient number of holes to penetrate the magam chamber.

You cannot drill any hole that will penetrate the magma chamber and remain open. You cannot prevent magma solidifying within the hole you have drilled. The list goes on. This is not just an impractical suggestion, this is an impossible suggestion with any realistically projected technology.

With a lot of time and you can drill enough holes, every problem has a solution. People thought that it was nearly impossible to make a fusion reactor that can withstand the extreme heat and pressure that are needed to sustain a nuclear fusion reaction but now with a lot of research time and funding we are only a few years away from testing the first ever Fusion Reactor that will be used for power generation. Impossible but possible dream.

 

So as crazy as any theory may sound, as scientists we should always open our mind to any possibility and think that nothing is impossible for man to reach as the Americans showed us that even man can reach the heavens and beyond when they put a man on the moon.

 

any other suggestions/.