The first instance of heliacal rising and celestial grids

[gentleman-farmer]

The purpose of this tread is to provide an insight into the origins of some of our knowledge of astronomy. The method I've chosen to do that is to quote actual passages from some very ancient Texts so readers can see how these subjects were discussed and taught in ancient times.

 

ABOUT ME

 

I graduated with an engineering degree then into the Apollo moon project and nights teaching college physics. The first week of class I announced that I'd be teaching some elements of Astronomy throughout the semester.

 

But at that point I decided to teach the history of some of our knowledge of Astronomy instead, and that I'd relate it to parts of the Apollo program. Our college had an actual first stage Saturn engine on display at the science center - and I'd designed a number of parts thereon that were visible - so we took time from class to study the engine - A cluster of five of these Saturn engines (with a total of 7.5 million pounds of thrust) launched Apollo to the moon

 

Today we have computer programs (like SkyChart) that show the sky from any horizon, or date, and time. At the time of Apollo we didn't have such things so I made a projector transparency and we discussed heliacal rising and celestial grids from there

 

Heliacal rising and celestial grids are mainstay principles of Astronomy found in text books - and do not require peer verification

 

 

The appropriate (ancient) text that accompanies this illustration discusses both heliacal rising and celestial grids - it is as follows :: a close study reveals what is being said (who might be speaking) and what is meant by it

 

QUOTES

1.) Remember me. Orion is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon. Sothis is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon.

 

2.) I have gone up upon the ladder with my foot on Orion!

/

Edited July 26, 2010 by gentleman-farmer

[DJBruce]

I am not really sure what your paint collage of pictures and apparent non-sequiturs are getting at. Would you care to be a little less obtuse and more precise and straight forward.

[mooeypoo]

!

Moderator Note

gf, it's time you read the definition of "mainstream science" and start following it. For one, mainstream science has actual peer reviewed evidence and references.

Moved to speculations.

[JohnB]

a close study reveals what is being said and what is meant by it

 

1.) Remember me. Orion is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon. Sothis is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon.

(Emphasis mine)

A rather elementary one will suffice. Anybody who has read more than a childrens primer on AE knows of the 72 days Sothis spends in the Underworld (below the horizon) each year. It's rising from the Underworld was the indication that Inundation was about to start.

 

Or do you have a different interpretation, g-f?

[gentleman-farmer]

To :: mooeypoo Both heliacal rising and celestial grids have been peer reviewed every which way but loose

 

But folk have to know what each is before they could possibly respond in a helpful manner.

 

Here is a website from Stanford University that mentions (just as I did) that Sirius is a heliacal rising star. If you click on the name ( Sirius ) on the right side of the opening page, you'll see an animation

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/AO/dawn-rising.html

 

I formatted my post with an introduction to the history of the 40's and 50's in hope of attracting this older group

 

gf)

/

[mooeypoo]

To :: mooeypoo Both heliacal rising and celestial grids have been peer reviewed every which way but loose

 

But folk have to know what each is before they could possibly respond in a helpful manner.

Then either you are derelict of duty as a claimant or such peer reviewed evidence doesn't exist, since you supplied none.

 

Here is a website from Stanford University that mentions (just as I did) that Sirius is a heliacal rising star. If you click on the name ( Sirius ) on the right side of the opening page, you'll see an animation

http://solar-center....awn-rising.html

 

I formatted my post with an introduction to the history of the 40's and 50's in hope of attracting this older group

 

gf)

/

 

gf, either you're not reading or you're not comprehending. We request peer reviewed evidence, not random sites.

 

No one is going to take you seriously if you don't start taking the debate seriously. This is a science forum, not a random site-go-happy databank that incidentally has a sentence that agrees with part of a larger (NON EVIDENCED) claim you make.

 

Quite honestly, gf, it's time you put up or shut up. Non scientific random sits do not count as scientific reference, and absolutely definitely and unequivocally do not count as peer reviewed evidence.

 

~moo

[Sayonara]

Gentleman-farmer, your original post is leading to some confusion because it doesn't seem to make a specific proposal, ask a well-defined question, or provoke any particular discussion.

 

What is it you want to discuss? Presumably something since you have taken the time to start a thread. Some clarity here would be of benefit.

[gentleman-farmer]

TO :: Mooeypoo

Then either you are derelict of duty as a claimant or such peer reviewed evidence doesn't exist, since you supplied none.

 

gf) This is the Astronomy - Cosmology section of SCIENCEFORUMS.NET - and heliacal rising and celestial grids is part and parcel to a degree in either

 

I didn't think it my place to define sophomore level Astronomy - rather, I was hopeful that those with degrees (or a working knowledge) could help expand on the subject

 

gf)

\

[Klaynos]

The fact that helitical rising happens and that celestial grids are a valid way of stating where things are in the sky I can vouch for.

 

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1987JHAS...18...19S

[JohnB]

Klaynos, yes they are valid, but what is the point of the OP?

 

Demonstrating that heliacal rising is a valid observation is akin to demonstrating that metres and kilometres are a valid method of measuring distance. It begs the question "So what?".

 

As Sayo pointed out, the OP didn't "make a specific proposal, ask a well-defined question, or provoke any particular discussion", one has to wonder what the point of starting the thread was.

 

I suspect the thread starter believes himself to be in posession of deep and arcane knowledge that is previously undiscovered by the thousands of researchers who have gone before him and can actually read the texts he bases his work on.

 

The hook is in the last part of the OP and I think we are supposed to resond by asking him to kindly share the benefits of his wisdom so that we poor mortals can understand what is "really" being said in these ancient texts. (The fact that g-f can't read the texts anyway is beside the point. )

 

The spirit of Von Daniken lives on.

[gentleman-farmer]

I'm going to discuss the meaning of the two passages quoted in my opening post in a bit - and I‘ll introduce many others that will express the same idea -- but a thought came to mind. We're going to see that the ancient concept of heliacal rising and heliacal setting is the same as our own.

 

With that in mind -- my thought was this ::

 

Is it possible to recognize heliacal rising and heliacal setting without also recognizing a heliocentric (sun centered) solar system?

 

In other words - can you have heliacal rising and heliacal setting if you thought the sun orbited the earth?

 

gf

/

[Sisyphus]

 

 

In other words - can you have heliacal rising and heliacal setting if you thought the sun orbited the earth?

 

 

Yes, you can. That was the case for thousands of years.

[gentleman-farmer]

Yes, you can. That was the case for thousands of years.

 

gf) Yes - I agree - I just plotted it out and there may be a slightly different length of time that the "heliacal" star or constellation would not be visible - but the concept is valid either way (geo-centric or helio-centric) as you indicated

 

gf)

 

/

[gentleman-farmer]

The purpose of this tread is to provide an insight into the origins of some of our knowledge of astronomy. The method I've chosen to do that is to quote actual passages from some very ancient Texts so readers can see how these subjects were discussed and taught in ancient times.

 

Here are the passages with a (word by word) - (phrase by phrase) rendering preceded by the name of the speaker

 

The appropriate (ancient) text that accompanies the illustration discusses both heliacal rising and celestial grids - a close study reveals what is being said (who might be speaking) and what is meant by it -- it is as follows ::

 

QUOTES

A.) Remember me. Orion is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon. Sothis is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon.

 

1.) Orion & Sothis are speaking in a collective voice in reference to heliacal setting while reminding the reader that they will not be visible for a period of time ::: i.e., "Remember me."

 

2.) This text is a direct reference to heliacal setting ::: Orion is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon. Sothis is swallowed up by the Netherworld, Pure and living in the horizon.

 

B.) I have gone up upon the ladder with my foot on Orion!

 

1.) Gemini is speaking, the "ladder" refers to a celestial grid ::: I have gone up upon the ladder with my foot on Orion!

 

We'll be seeing how the "ladder" is laid down in later posts on this thread

 

/

[Klaynos]

Is the celestial grid not just a modern mapping method? Therefore they would have no knowledge of it, as for the rest of this thread, would you say it belongs more in the religion sub forum?

[gentleman-farmer]

Klaynos

Is the celestial grid not just a modern mapping method? Therefore they would have no knowledge of it

 

gf) No! there is nothing modern about it - You'll see in the following posts that they had a very sophisticated way of describing it. They used the terms "ladder" and "reed floats" - I had to use the phrase celestial grid so folk here would recognize the intent

 

 

Klaynos

as for the rest of this thread, would you say it belongs more in the religion sub forum?

 

gf) No! This has nothing to do with religion or the passage to heaven - it is about heliacal rising and celestial grids

 

gf

/

[insane_alien]

gentleman-farmer, you need to learn the difference between actual data and interpretation. badly.

[Klaynos]

Klaynos

 

gf) No! there is nothing modern about it - You'll see in the following posts that they had a very sophisticated way of describing it. They used the terms "ladder" and "reed floats" - I had to use the phrase celestial grid so folk here would recognize the intent

 

Then that is misleading, if I call a pear an apple people will be expecting an apple when I sell them one, to give them a pear would be wrong.

 

Klaynos

 

gf) No! This has nothing to do with religion or the passage to heaven - it is about heliacal rising and celestial grids

 

 

Are you not quoting religious texts?

[gentleman-farmer]

JohnB

 

A rather elementary (interpretation) will suffice. Anybody who has read more than a children's primer on AE knows of the 72 days Sothis spends in the Underworld (below the horizon) each year. It's rising from the Underworld was the indication that Inundation was about to start.

 

Or do you have a different interpretation, g-f?

 

gf) I agree (see my response), except (and despite popular belief) your quote cannot be true

 

It's rising from the Underworld was the indication that Inundation was about to start

 

The Flooding of the Nile was said to start in June (+ / -) and last until September (+ / -) but crops are very intolerant of high moisture conditions. Corn particularly - that's why you see stunted conditions on the outside edges of corn fields, and June to September is the growing season.

 

We raised corn and (alfalfa / Timothy hay) and know first hand that rain in moderation is good - but flooding is not

 

Something is wrong with the Inundation myth

 

Here is a quote that confirms corn was grown

the Imperishable Stars in the north of the sky, who rule over offerings and protect the reaped corn

 

 

 

gf

/

[Klaynos]

Sorry, you don't think the Egyptians used inundation to grow their crops. Not all crops are the same. Consider rice they require flooding for long periods to grow.

[gentleman-farmer]

Klaynos

 

Sorry, you don't think the Egyptians used inundation to grow their crops. Not all crops are the same. Consider rice they require flooding for long periods to grow.

 

gf) - (bad guess Klaynos) You'll not find rice, or the growing of rice mentioned anywhere in the Pyramid Texts or the Book of the Dead. They grew corn, wheat and (barley from which they brewed beer)

 

But no rice

 

And I know better than to inundate my crop! That'd be the sure way to ruin

 

gf)

,

[gentleman-farmer]

PART 1 of 3 The following un-edited passage in quotes describes the laying out of a celestial grid made up of lines of latitude and longitude that will make a pattern that circles the earth (E - W) & (N - S). NOTE I'm using modern language to describe these passages in order for it to make sense to the reader.

(Please read and familiarize yourself with the following terminology (lines a - e) - it relates to the full text in quotes thank you)

 

a.) reed-floats ::: lines of celestial latitude and longitude (i.e., meridians)

b.) Re ::: the sun - but also the daylight hours (horizon to horizon)

c.) Harakhti ::: the nighttime equivalent of Re and the nighttime hours (horizon to horizon)

d.) panther-skin ::: the star studded sky

e.) "me" - two directions are implied - when it is just "Re" it is northward and refers to the polar regions where the meridians converge. Where it is"Harakhti and to Re" It is southward from the polar regions toward the equator (see note 1. for the passage that defines this (quote "Companions who cross the sky")

 

 

The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for Re That he may cross on them to the horizon. The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for Harakhti That Harakhti may cross on them to Re. The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for me That I may cross on them to the horizon, to Re. The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for me That I may cross on them to Harakhti and to Re. It is well with me and my double, I live with my double, my panther-skin is on me

 

NOTE 1. keep in mind that from the polar regions you can observe all compass points, "awning" means the polar skies, and the "two Court yards" refers to the sun-lit half of the earth, and the night side)

O you southern, northern, western, and eastern gods, mourn me and fear me, for I have seated myself in the awning of the Two Court yards

,

[Klaynos]

Klaynos

 

 

 

gf) - (bad guess Klaynos) You'll not find rice, or the growing of rice mentioned anywhere in the Pyramid Texts or the Book of the Dead. They grew corn, wheat and (barley from which they brewed beer)

 

But no rice

 

And I know better than to inundate my crop! That'd be the sure way to ruin

 

gf)

,

 

You missed my point that not all crops are not the same, neither are all corns.

 

PART 1 of 3 The following un-edited passage

 

Un-edited but translated without a living speaker... The translation and certainly the interpretation are up for great debate.

 

You are conducting what is effectively linguistic numerology, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology , it's pretty much worthless and will lead to any result you wish.

 

You also ignored my question asking if you were quoting religious texts...

[JohnB]

g-f. If you are going to quote from texts, then please provide a reference so that they can be checked. I personally don't give two hoots in hell what you use, but reference them.

 

This is particularly important if using the Book of the Dead or the Pyramid Texts. The diet of the ancient Egyptians changed over time and so it is vital to know the source of the text so that the crop referred to is known. A reference from the Book of the Dead can come from anywhere between the Second and Twentieth Dynasties and the dietary changes over this vast span of time.

 

I'm particularly concerned about this quote;

the Imperishable Stars in the north of the sky, who rule over offerings and protect the reaped corn

You don't "reap" corn, you reap grains like wheat or barley. The particular tool used for reaping grain is one of the earliest known, the "Reaping Hook".

As can be easily seen, its use for harvesting corn is quite, um, limited. Either the translation of "reaped" is wrong or the "corn" is wrong, a translation of "harvested corn" or "picked corn" or "reaped grain" is to be expected, but certainly not "reaped corn". I would be most interested to see the original glyphs for this quote.

 

Corn was grown, but it's crops had little to do with the inundation, most often it was grown in irrigated fields above the flood level so your point

And I know better than to inundate my crop!

is moot at best. At worst it shows a complete lack of knowledge regarding agricultural techniques of Pharonic Egypt.

 

Concerning the inundation itself, that is a fascinating study. Nothing is grown on the floodplains during inundation. The annual floods laid down a (generally) thick layer of silt all over the plain. This rich alluvial soil was so good that 2 and sometimes 3 crops could be harvested between floods. Depending on the fields, these crops could be anything from lettuce, onions and radishes through to wheat and barley.

 

The staple food of the people was bread made from wheat, the staple drink beer or wine. Foods were supplemented by fish, sometimes gamebirds and roots etc that the people could gather. As an aside, Celibate Priests were forbidden during some Dynasties to eat onions as their aphrodesiac qualities were thought to cause problems.

 

Another interesting sidenote is one that most people don't think of. The Inundation was in many ways responsible for the quite advanced surveying techniques of the Pharonic Egyptians. Rather than fences, stone markers were used to deliniate fields. These markers were often lost, swept away, buried or moved by the floodwaters so a sophisicated system of surveyors was required to remark the fields after every inundation. Excellent record keeping and a scribal bureaucracy become required just for society to function. (Okay, I'm rambling, but I find it fascinating. )

 

So g-f, as you can see, there is nothing wrong with my comment. The rising of Sothis did indeed herald the inundation. Your attempt to counter it with corn is strange to say the least.

 

I will repeat myself though. Please reference the passages that you are quoting so they can be checked. Crops changed, religions changed. A society that lasted for 3,000 years changes in many and subtle ways so a reference that places the quote in it's historical context is vital for understanding.

 

Edit to add. Klaynos it's very hard to use AE texts without using at least some religious texts. The religion was very closely tied to astronomical observations however that doesn't make the debate religious in any way. In the old religion there was a saying "As above, so below" for the Egyptians this was literally true in many respects. The Duat was both "Heaven" and a very real place in the Northern sky.

Edited July 31, 2010 by JohnB

[gentleman-farmer]

Klaynos

Un-edited but translated (by Dr R. O. Faulkner) without a living speaker... The translation and certainly the interpretation are up for great debate.

 

gf) I'll leave you with that misguided notion - But if anyone to give it an ounce of credibility they'd have to ignore Newton, Einstein, Kepler, and Pasteur while noting that Dr R. O. Faulkner was the leading modern British authority on the progressive stages of funerary texts developed in antiquity (in contrast who is Klaynos?)

 

And for klaynos to suggest that the work of Dr R. O. Faulkner is up great debate, is the height of arrogance (particularly considering that Klaynos never read the book)

 

And the fact that Klaynos responded to very complex text in just eight minutes says a whole bunch beyond his actual words

 

gf

 

(Please read and familiarize yourself with the following terminology - it relates to the full text in quotes thank you)

 

a.) reed-floats ::: lines of celestial latitude and longitude (i.e., meridians)

b.) Re ::: the sun - but also the daylight hours (horizon to horizon)

c.) Harakhti ::: the nighttime equivalent of Re and the nighttime hours (horizon to horizon)

d.) panther-skin ::: the star studded sky

e.) "me" - two directions are implied - when it is just "Re" it is northward and refers to the polar regions where the meridians converge. Where it is"Harakhti and to Re" It is southward from the polar regions toward the equator (see note 1. for the passage that defines this (quote "Companions who cross the sky")

 

 

The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for Re That he may cross on them to the horizon. The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for Harakhti That Harakhti may cross on them to Re. The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for me That I may cross on them to the horizon, to Re. The reed-floats of the sky are set in place for me That I may cross on them to Harakhti and to Re. It is well with me and my double, I live with my double, my panther-skin is on me

 

NOTE 1. keep in mind that from the polar regions you can observe all compass points, "awning" means the polar skies, and the "two Court yards" refers to the sun-lit half of the earth, and the night side)

O you southern, northern, western, and eastern gods, mourn me and fear me, for I have seated myself in the awning of the Two Court yards

,