The Mind is the Message

[Butters]

I decided that I had best put this in speculation rather than annoy people in the quantum theory section. Basically, I am a science fiction writer and in one of my novels there is a society of AI's that exist throughout the universe in virtual colonies on a series of thousands of asteroids. By virtual colonies I mean that they only exist as digitally encoded minds, although they have access to the sensory equipment of each asteroid to observe the outside world and, if necessary, affect it.

 

Being a huge fan of bandwagons, I'm jumping on the one labelled quantum entanglement as a means for them to be connected to each other. I have the usual limited understanding, but my understanding is that information cannot be sent in this way (by measuring the spin of particles) because there is no way to know what the result at the other end was without using traditional communication, which defeats the purpose of it. My idea is basically to have a massive amount (billions) of entangled particles, whose spin is interpreted by an outside machine as a mental state. Simplifying things incredibly, lets say the brain is a series of switches set to either on or off. Or at least, a mind can be represented in this way if it the system is sufficiently complex. So when the mind needs to be sent to another asteroid, it is measure and then the information is fed into the device so that the spin of the particles is altered to represent the current mental state of an individual. The box at the other end measures the entangled particles on a regular basis (let's say every second or so) so that if the configuration in the box ever becomes a conscious intelligence it can inform the machine to copy it into the hardware of the asteroid and it can then be in another place, many light years away.

 

So the entangled particles are just a way of taking a snapshot of a mind and transmitting it. They are not how it exists at all times, that is simply accomplished by traditional digital hardware (albeit very advanced). It seems to me that although this is transferring information, it is not transferring it from one external party to another. The mind itself IS the message and so can inform those on the other end once it emerges from this quantum 'black box' transmitter.

 

Obviously this is all speculatory, but in the context of a science fiction novel where it need not be explained down to exact mathematical details, can anybody see any OBVIOUS logical flaws, beyond accepting that a mind can be digitised and a few of the other sci-fi staples that may require a suspension of disbelief.

 

I would appreciate any feedback on this, the more nitpicky the better. And possibly solutions if you can come up with any.

 

This forum is great by the way. Glad I found it!

[JohnB]

I've thought a bit on this since reading it earlier.

 

One thing that comes across is that the mind doesn't "travel" as such. For want of a better word it is "cloned" at the recieving point. From your description the transmitting mind is scanned and the results of the scan are impressed on the entangled particles thereby causing changes at the recieving point and the integration of the mind there. Note though that the original mind still exists at the transmitting point.

 

So after transmission we have two minds, the original and the clone. Presumably the original mind would like some of answer or it's going to be a one sided conversation. This would mean that the clone would get scanned and the transmission direction reversed. So the original transmission point now has the original mind and the clone of the clone that came back with the reply. This is going to get messy very quickly and it would appear to be rather inefficient, something I don't think we would expect from machine intelligences.

 

It would, I think, make more sense if the intelligences used "bots" or "messbots" for the transmission of information. These would be non self aware programs that are transmitted and destroyed once they deliver their message. Since they would be software and non sentient, "use and delete" makes sense. It's the transmission of information that is mportant, not the transmission of the minds.

 

I think one of the difficulties with this supposed species is their narrow limit. By being essentially confined to the storage hardware on the asteroid, they cannot expand. Even using entanglement, they cannot go anywhere that they haven't been before and set up recieving equipment. Stagnation would set in rather early, both sociological and astronomical.

 

My 2 cents, anyway.

[Mr Skeptic]

Particles can be used to transmit information, but only up to or slower than the speed of light. Light (or microwaves or x-rays or any other color) can be used to transmit information just fine, so long as you don't mind the necessary delay.

[Butters]

I thought that entangled particles reacted apparently without any observable delay, but only in terms of collapsing into a specific probability (of what direction they are spinning for example). Isn't that what the whole 'spooky action at a distance' quote refers to?

 

I did consider that the minds at both ends would also be duplicated, but that is not necessarily a problem. In fact, as these minds are stored artificially, we can make the assumption that there is also a way to amalgamate the two into a newer updated version in terms of memory and temprament at all points at once. So the minds would exist in all places at ones, in more or less the same state.

 

Of course, they could be having external sensory information being fed from all the points at which they exist, and act locally on that. Although their mind may be thinking the same thing at all points, they could be focusing on the input from one specific area. This would mean you wouldn't have multiple copies of different versions. Although bots could accomplish this in much the same way, and the result to the minds as they were updated would be indistinguishable from the other method.

 

Also, the asteroids could simply be hub points. If one was in orbit around a planet for example, that planet could be colonised and populated with blank androids or something similar, which could be used by telepresence as required by the minds. Far from stagnating them, it could free them up for far greater exploration than is otherwise possible.

[Mr Skeptic]

I thought that entangled particles reacted apparently without any observable delay, but only in terms of collapsing into a specific probability (of what direction they are spinning for example). Isn't that what the whole 'spooky action at a distance' quote refers to?

 

Right, but the spooky action at a distance won't transmit information. Sure, you'll know that your partner at the other end has the opposite result as yours, and you can use this as a basis for a code, but even this information is transmitted at or slower than light, because the particles had to be transmitted. The same information could be transmitted at the same or faster speed by sending a stream of unentangled photons.

[Butters]

I realise that you would have to separate the entangled particles by moving them apart at a speed no faster than the speed of light, but once you'd set up this network (over the many hundreds of years it would take to do so) then wouldn't the waveform collapse of the particles appear to be instantaneous? I could well be wrong on that point, which is a pity, because it destroys my whole premise.

 

But say there were enough entangled particles arranged in a configuration (whereby an up or down spin represented the firing or not firing of a neuron- very simplified brain model of course), and one end could alter these spins as they simultaneously measured them. Would this not then give rise to a consciousness at the other end when it was measured at a pre-arranged interval?

 

Or does the altering of a particle's spin destroy entanglement? Or if it doesn't, would it be a 'one time use' only and you would need an entangled 'black box' transmitter for every single time you wanted to update the mind.

 

I realise the accepted rule is you can't transmit information in this way, but I was hoping that at least theoretically this limit only applied to an outside observer.

 

I apologise for my ignorance in this, and if I've restated something, but I am very much a lay-person when it comes to quantum mechanics so I appreciate things being spelled out for me!

[Mr Skeptic]

You got it pretty much right, except that you have no way of using these particles to transmit information. Yes, the wavefunction collapse is instantaneous, but it is also random -- you can't choose what your particle nor your partner's will be measured as. Of course, scifi writers don't need to follow the laws of physics, at least not strictly. But maybe you could use tachyons instead. Tachyons are hypothesized to go faster than light and remain theoretical, and so far the only use for them is scifi magic. There's supposed to be something that prevents tachyons from transmitting information, but I don't know what it is.

[Butters]

Ah, so my mistake was in the simple glossing over of the idea that you can affect the result at the end your measuring. Oh well, like you say, a bit of sci-fi vaguery will tide me over there.

[JohnB]

You got it pretty much right, except that you have no way of using these particles to transmit information. Yes, the wavefunction collapse is instantaneous, but it is also random -- you can't choose what your particle nor your partner's will be measured as.

 

However, since we have a sentience that can upload itself into hard drives, is it such a stretch? Is it so far out of bounds to postulate that these very advanced intelligences can cause the waveform to collapse in a non-random fashion? That's all that is required to make the idea work.

 

Waveform collapse random = no communication but waveform collapse non-random = communication. Allowing for non-random waveform collapse strikes me as a minor point when talking scifi. We already accept Hyperspace, Warps, Wormholes and Thor only knows what else.

 

It could be explained as an offshoot of developing the technology for "molecular" or "Atom based" computing. Once you are using atoms and molecules to store and manipulate data, the ability to collapse waveforms in a non-random manner would seem a logical development.

[Mr Skeptic]

Not everyone uses scifi magic. The genre called "hard science fiction" follows the known laws of science to the letter, often not even touching the hypothetical/theoretical possibilities of unknown laws. These books describe things that we know for sure could happen, but of course are more limited. Star travel via generation ships, for example, pretty much means no galaxy-wide events. That doesn't necessarily make it more interesting, and the knowledge that the scenario really is possible makes it more exciting for me. In this case, having instantaneous communication might actually make it difficult to have a plot, depending on what sort of events are intended to happen in the society. Also if it is on a single solar system, the time delay for using normal light will only be a few hours.

[JohnB]

I agree to a great degree.

 

It comes down to what is needed to make the story work and the point of the story.

 

Using normal physics works if the story is set within a system or allows for generation ships. However if the story requires an intersystem civilization then the effects of communications change the structure of the story. The background and entire society changes to suit.

 

In "Ringworld" by Larry Niven, Harloprillalar was surprised that her civilization had fallen when she came back from a 900 year relativistic voyage. Note the mix in Heinleins "Time for the Stars". While the ships travel at relativistic speeds, communication is via telepathy and instantaneous. Aside from a straight adventure story it was intended as a comment on how a society changes over time.

 

H. Beam Pipers "Terro Human Future History" is a collection of stories about societies, how they evolve and die. Communications travel by ship which log about a parsec per day. Not a problem if the planets are within 30 odd light years of each other but it's very difficult to run a Galactic Commonwealth if it takes 4 months for a message to arrive.

 

Speed of communication defines the possibilities of the society, so some scifi magic might be needed to allow the intended plot. Depending on the point, you might have to let the physics slip a bit to allow the sociology to work. It just depends on the needs of the storyline.

[Butters]

I actually aim for hard scifi. I have no faster than light travel. Ships can travel at about 20% the speed of light, which yes is very fast but still so very slow! They don't use generation ships though, they use cryogenics. In fact, the whole society uses cryogenics, preserving those with skills that are not currently needed and reviving them as necessary. There is not a problem reintegrating people as the technology level has stagnated (this stagnation is a major part of the plot, not merely a device). Energy is not infinite, and ships cannot turn on a dime. They must decelerate when approaching a planet, and Alpha Centauri is as far as we've gotten so far.

 

Also, no ftl communication and no artificial gravity. That is why I am likely to dump the idea of entanglement communication. I'm more likely to have encoded personalities transferring themselves at light speed and existing as a series of copies, sharing their memories as they update them. Obviously, the transfer is several years apart, but I would rather not just invent something purely magical. I'd prefer to have the characters work around the limitations of known science. If it's inconvenient for the narrative, then so be it! My characters shall be inconvenienced!

[swansont]

States that are entangled are unknown; the measurement of the state of one particle immediately tells you of the state of the other particle, but you still need to transmit the information elsewhere, as Mr Skeptic has noted.

 

Your proposal might also run afoul of the "no cloning" theorem, which means you can't just copy the unknown quantum state of a system.