Quit griping!

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I hear people every day, complaining about some government thing done years ago. People complain about how we could (I don't think we could) have stopped 9/11, how Iraq was wrong, how another war was wrong, etc. etc. But I have a question for you: Will arguing the correctness of a serious political move or even a military involvement fix the situation? Just saying "Iraq was wrong" is not going to get Iraq fixed. We can't pull out either. So instead of griping about what we should have done, why don't we argue over what we should do to fix it?

All of the debates over Iraq and 9/11 really have no point. You can't change the past by whining. You may vote differently, but that won't solve the problem. You need to find a solution to the problem and quit the griping.

Don't you agree?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry if I sound like a preacher, but it's true!

[jordan]

In a sense, yes.

 

It might not be so much griping as pointing out the lack of responsability or leadership and thus a reason not to vote for that person. Everyone has their best interests in mind when they vote and they want to perswade others that their candidate is better. To do that, one must show the downfalls of the other (though that can get very annoying hearing the same thing over and over). If I can show that Bush was negligent in 9/11, I can convince people not to vote for him. By doing that, I can prevent it from happening again. So while I can't change the past, I can use the past to change the future.

 

The one thing that does bother me are the uncontrolable situations. The one right now is Iraq. I feel the time to complain is over. Iraq is no longer a choice. We have to finish it whether we like it or not. I believe that when the people of the world hear how the US can't even keep itself united during the war, we make ourselves look worse that when Bush went into Iraq without the approval of the UN. I would imagine that when the protestors and bombers in Iraq hear that the US is crumbling from within over conflicts about the death toll, that is just more of a reason for them to want to attack our troops. Since we are stuck in Iraq until it's finished, I say let's stand behind the troops, back our own country, show them we wont give in and just finish the job. Then you can complain or whatever, but complaining now is just making the situation worse and that isn't something you should want.

 

Oh, I got a little sidetracked there, but it's almost on topic.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Yes, I was talking about mainly uncontrolable situations.

Example: All of the intelligence reforms to stop 9/11. We go and say "Oh, we're going to fix it and now no terrorists will get in." It's just like a Microsoft product. You claim it's impervious to evildoers, and then--someone finds a way to get in. It's impossible to stop all of these terrorist attacks and make them better.

 

Example 2: Iraq. First of all, to you whining about casualties: In the Civil War, 20,000 people could die in ONE DAY. Compared to 1,000 in Iraq over a year or two. And there are 1,000 heart bypass surgeries in one day. Instead of Iraq, shouldn't we whine about all of the causes of heart blockage and wage a (sort of) war against them? Shouldn't we stop suicide by providing free psychiatric help? Instead of whining about 1,000 people, .357%* of the US population, shouldn't we gripe about bigger problems?

 

 

*Funny, .357 is also the caliber of a gun... interesting coincidence.

[john5746]

9/11 may have been controllable if Clinton had responded to Al-Queda more urgently, but S**T does happen that we can't control or forsee.

 

The problem in Iraq is what is victory? We won the war. How do we know when to leave? When enough people get tired of it?

 

The same things were said about Vietnam, we must win, etc. But, the military wasn't allowed to "win" I see the same thing happening in Iraq. You don't want the UN to control US troops? How about Iraq? You can bomb this, don't go here, don't shoot there.

 

The election is political, so people will deal with past performance, since this may reveal future results. Iran? What should we do? Call them evil, invade and stay there for 10 years?

 

Sometimes I think the best solution is to pull everyone out and say if there is an atomic attack on anyone, the country that supplied the bomb will be atomized. But, then what if they steal the bomb from us?

[budullewraagh]

if Clinton had responded

don't be ignorant. clinton had daily meetings to prevent terrorist attacks and prevented an attack in los angeles. bush came into office and took more vacation time in his first 8 months than any previous president had in all of his terms (yes, more than franklin delano roosevelt, who happened to serve for 16 years).

We won the war

we did? they're still fighting and we're not accomplishing our mission.

[john5746]

We did win the war. Saddam is out and no WMD's. Now, we are attempting Nation building. The military is not for this, so they will fail. They will be getting shot at while pulling out on the ships.

 

 

Clinton's admin could have been more aggresive after the attacks on the Cole, etc. To be fair, I don't remember anyone saying we needed to involve ground troops, etc.

 

But, that was the time to respond to prevent 9/11, not 8 months prior.

[Mad Mardigan]

War doesnt prove is right, war proves who is left.

 

And it was Al Gore who laughed at Oliver North when he wanted to go after Bin Laden. And it was Clinton who said he was too buisy playing golf to answer a call to ok to launch the attack on Bin Laden. Further more, if the war in Iraq was finished the first go around, we would of been there a second time. We do need to something about the illegals in this country, studies show that in 15 years, hispanics will be over 25% of the population.

[budullewraagh]

We did win the war

what was the primary objective?

But, that was the time to respond to prevent 9/11, not 8 months prior.

that's not an excuse. if you are being told that your nation will be attacked and you do nothing, the blood is directly on your hands.

 

And it was Al Gore who laughed at Oliver North when he wanted to go after Bin Laden. And it was Clinton who said he was too buisy playing golf to answer a call to ok to launch the attack on Bin Laden.

got sources?

 

We do need to something about the illegals in this country, studies show that in 15 years, hispanics will be over 25% of the population.

whats your problem with hispanics?

[jordan]

don't be ignorant. clinton had daily meetings to prevent terrorist attacks and prevented an attack in los angeles. bush came into office and took more vacation time in his first 8 months than any previous president had in all of his terms (yes, more than franklin delano roosevelt, who happened to serve for 16 years).

Wasn't there an attack on the Trade Centers under Clinton?

 

A victory in Iraq would be when all foreign influences can pull out of Iraq and they can maintain a stable country/economy.

[john5746]

what was the primary objective?

 

Actually, this is one reason why I am against the "war". If I remeber correctly, the reason for going over there was that Saddam was a menace who was stockpiling WMD's. Terrorists could get these and become a threat to the US and the world.

 

I don't remember any talk of building a democracy to shine a light on the middle east.

 

On the hispanic question, Bush is the one proposing to give illegals cards, etc. This will encourage more to come. Don't worry about this though. After Bush runs up the deficits, our country will be in such a bad situation, we will be going to Mexico or Iraq to find work.

[Mad Mardigan]

what was the primary objective?

 

that's not an excuse. if you are being told that your nation will be attacked and you do nothing' date=' the blood is directly on your hands.

 

 

got sources?

 

 

whats your problem with hispanics?[/quote']

 

Actually it was Abu Nidal source http://i-cias.com/e.o/abu_nidal.htm , that Ollie was after, this terrorist group came befor Bin Laden did.

 

And hispanics are flooding this country illegally, getting into welfare, taking jobs under the table, bring in crime..... so on so on.

[Thales]

Such overt racisim. Ever thought that just like terrorism, addressing the root causes of crime(ie poverty) might serve better than lumping minorities under the one banner.

 

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

Edit: On the original question I think the answer is a resounding, no!

 

Should we let issues, our political leaders screwed up royally, go, in the interest of 'moving on'. No. Critical analysis is the very foundation of a functioning democracy. If you suppress debate, either prior to or after the event, the fear of political backlash will fade and our leaders will have little left to temper the hand of revenge and cheap political gains. You cannot expect people to just 'let go' of issues like Iraq because it has already happened. The point of debate is to acknowledge the mistakes made in a attempt to learn from them. Failure is the greatest teacher but if these people are unaware of their failings there is nothing to stop the from doing it again.

[budullewraagh]

dude dont be racist

[PerpetualYnquisitive]

Wasn't there an attack on the Trade Centers under Clinton?

 

A victory in Iraq would be when all foreign influences can pull out of Iraq and they can maintain a stable country/economy.

 

Yes there was and there was also government complicity in that event.

 

Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast

 

by Ralph Blumenthal

The New York Times

October 28' date=' 1993

 

 

 

Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast.

 

The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

 

The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as being in a far better position than previously known to foil the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.

 

The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars. Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court [on charges of involvement'] in that attack.

 

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases: the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the second bombing case, but his work for the Government was erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast, he was feuding with th F.B.I.

 

Full article: http://billstclair.com/911timeline/1990s/nyt102893.html

 

 

From CooperativeResearch.org

 

Oct 1993 WTC Bombing

 

The New York Times reports that the FBI knew in advance that terrorists were plotting to build a bomb and 'blow up the World Trade Center' and 'planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives...'. [NY Times article; Article; Article; Article; Article; Article; Article] Also revealed is how Salem secretly recorded his conversations with FBI agents and, as the transcripts show, tried to complain to FBI Headquarters in Washington about the bureau's failure to stop the bombing but was dissuaded by an agent identified as John Anticev. Defense attorney, William Kunstler, had seen some of the transcripts and described them as "filled with all sorts of Government misconduct." [NY Times articles; Article; Article; Article; Article; Article; Article]

 

Full article: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=salem&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+

[Mad Mardigan]

dude dont be racist

 

Not being racist, profiling. Just like someone calling my AR15 an assult weapon.

[Thales]

You are making generalisations about an ethnic minority based on preconcieved prejudice. It doesn't get much more racist than that.

[Skye]

Actually' date=' this is one reason why I am against the "war". If I remeber correctly, the reason for going over there was that Saddam was a menace who was stockpiling WMD's. Terrorists could get these and become a threat to the US and the world.

 

I don't remember any talk of building a democracy to shine a light on the middle east.[/quote']

The main argument was that Iraq was a threat, but the nation building was discussed a little, eg,

 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030226-11.html

[atinymonkey]

All of the debates over Iraq and 9/11 really have no point. You can't change the past by whining. You may vote differently' date=' but that won't solve the problem. You need to find a solution to the problem and quit the griping.

Don't you agree?[/quote']

 

No. There is no 'solution' to Iraq. Its FUBAR, and you are stuck with that.

 

Sorry if I sound like a preacher, but it's true!

 

You sound like a redneck hick. If you are only comfortable discussing one issue, stay one one thread. What possessed you to berate people for using the freedom of speech? Why, above all other things, can we not call the money hoarding loon in the whitehouse an assmonkey? Have you got a problem with people actually expressing opinions? If you want a totalitarian regime where the decisions of the great leader are never questioned, get yourself to North Korea.

 

 

Not being racist, profiling. Just like someone calling my AR15 an assult weapon.

 

When you are generically profiling hispanics as criminals you are basing that on race, that's racism.

 

When I tell you an AR15 is an M16, I am telling you that the M16 is the US military tag for the AR15 production model. Just because you have a rifle with http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/cad/ar15_receiver.pdf, replaced makes no difference to it's design function. That is not racism. Don't compare me with you.

[LuTze]

If you want a totalitarian regime where the decisions of the great leader are never questioned, get yourself to North Korea.

Useless Trivia Time: Kim Il-sung was the "Great Leader". I believe they have a "Dear Leader" now, Kim Jong-il.

[5614]

people dwell on the past for too long, whilst there is obviously stuff to learn from the past, that doesnt mean you have to dwell on it [in the way this thread was meant to be discussing]

 

its easy to say in hind-sight, bush thought he was doing a good thing going into iraq, you cant say, well look at all the dead, they arent his fault, it was inevitable, and if you think there are so many dead people it wasnt worth going into iraq in the first place, thats stupid, coz no one wants or knew that people were going to die.

[Phi for All]

You can't change the past by whining. You may vote differently' date=' but that won't solve the problem. You need to find a solution to the problem and quit the griping.

Don't you agree?[/quote']Absolutely NOT! You know, if I had as much money as Bush I would be taking out ads and running my own commercials, adding up all the many things that are just plain wrong about this administration.

 

But I'm not that wealthy. So I whine about it. I post on forums about it. I talk to anybody who'll listen and beg them to cast their vote against this warmongering, lying, freak of a politician who has half the country convinced that it's OK to be a superpower leader and talk like a junior high school dropout. Cast your vote against this weasel that tells you that the estate tax will affect your farm, when no one has ever lost their farm to the estate tax. Or that he wants seniors to pay less for prescription drugs when his bill not only gave the drug companies over $100 billion dollars but also raised drug prices. The list of lies goes on and on.

 

People say, Oh the president doesn't have to be smart if he's got smart people around him. But what if he doesn't listen to the smart people? What if he goes against the opinions of all those people who are supposed to give him advice? Advice that has to be dumbed down into a one or two page report because Bush just can't be bothered to read it if it's too long!

 

You need to find a solution to the problem and quit the griping.

All those smart people are the ones who were offering solutions to Bush that he has ignored. It's not up to me to find solutions, it's up to our elected officials. This one has proven that he is going to ignore the solutions provided and do what his "base" advises him to do. And that base just wants to make more money, they have none of my interests at heart.

 

I'm airing my gripes so people will know there is a need for solutions, because some people seem to think everything is just great. No offense, but it must be nice to live with your parents. Write when you find work and move out and have to live in the world that Bush built.

[Mad Mardigan]

When you are generically profiling hispanics as criminals you are basing that on race' date=' that's racism.

 

When I tell you an AR15 is an M16, I am telling you that the M16 is the US military tag for the AR15 production model. Just because you have a rifle with http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/cad/ar15_receiver.pdf, replaced makes no difference to it's design function. That is not racism. Don't compare me with you.[/quote']

 

It does change to rifle completely, an AR15 can only fire one round with one pull of the trigger. An assult weapon fires multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger.

 

So you are being racist towards something, just in a different matter.

[Dapthar]

And hispanics are flooding this country illegally, getting into welfare, taking jobs under the table, bring in crime..... so on so on.

Illegal immigrants, some of whom are Hispanic, would not come into this country if jobs were not available for them. Businesses, and rich individuals seeking nannies, maids, gardeners, etc., exploit these people by hiring them, paying them substandard wages, and offering little to no benefits.

 

Bottom line: illegal immigrants wouldn't cross over if crooked businesses and affluent individuals who want cheap hired help did not offer these "under the table" jobs in the first place.

 

In response to the topic:

 

Only by "griping" do those who claim to represent the people become informed of problems with their constituency. It is not the duty of the people to suggest solutions, since that is what purported platform that nearly every politican runs on.

[Phi for All]

So you are being racist towards something, just in a different matter.

The word you are searching for is prejudiced, having formed an opinion prior to actually dealing with someone or something. Racism is active discrimination based on a person's race.

 

Btw, neither word is applicable in context of your argument. Re-read what atm has posted and you'll find he has not pre-judged your rifle.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

No. There is no 'solution' to Iraq. Its FUBAR, and you are stuck with that.

I knew that. I'm just trying to say that griping is pointless.

 

 

 

You sound like a redneck hick. If you are only comfortable discussing one issue, stay one one thread. What possessed you to berate people for using the freedom of speech? Why, above all other things, can we not call the money hoarding loon in the whitehouse an assmonkey? Have you got a problem with people actually expressing opinions? If you want a totalitarian regime where the decisions of the great leader are never questioned, get yourself to North Korea.

Methinks you entirely misread what I said. I didn't say that griping is illegal. I'm just saying whining IS NOT GOING TO HELP.

 

I'm airing my gripes so people will know there is a need for solutions' date=' because some people seem to think everything is just great. No offense, but it must be nice to live with your parents. [/quote'] I think people know about the need for solutions.

My parents have no problems with any of these taxes or anything. Not that they agree with them, but we're perfectly fine. No monetary worries, and we're not rich either.