Are you a scientist who studies cells

[kitkat]

Is there any scientists on this forum who studies cells? I am curious of how you view single celled organism, do you see them as actual beings of lifeforms or just simply life cells that react to chemicals and convert chemicals as waste production?

[Mr Skeptic]

Yes, I study cells. They are alive, just like your body. They do not have a complex nervous system like you and so are not conscious beings. Single celled organisms are simultaneously more complex and less complex than multicellular ones. More complex, because they have to deal with a harsher and more variable environment, yet less complex in that the area of teamwork. A multicellular organism is made of cells and yet you could replace all the cells and have the same organism. Meanwhile, an unicellular organism can reproduce and you can't tell which is the "parent" and which the "child".

[kitkat]

Yes, I study cells. They are alive, just like your body. They do not have a complex nervous system like you and so are not conscious beings. Single celled organisms are simultaneously more complex and less complex than multicellular ones. More complex, because they have to deal with a harsher and more variable environment, yet less complex in that the area of teamwork. A multicellular organism is made of cells and yet you could replace all the cells and have the same organism. Meanwhile, an unicellular organism can reproduce and you can't tell which is the "parent" and which the "child".

 

I realize that they do not have a complex nervous system but they do react to their environment, isn't this kind of the same thing? They have an eye spot, they do communicate by quorum sensing, they can smell according to the recent studies done on them. This implies self awareness to some extant, doesn't it?

 

I really want to understand and learn the truth but internet research on microbes is misleading.

[Mr Skeptic]

Yes, they react to their environment, but not "on purpose". It is an automatic process, just like for you. Do you monitor and adjust your blood glucose levels, hydration levels, CO2 levels, blood sodium, core temperature, sweat levels, heart rate, blood vessel dilation, ...? Your body does this automatically, although some of these aspects use input from your parasympathetic nervous system. Your cells each maintain their individual homeostasis, and your body as a whole does too. But this isn't what most people mean by "self-awareness". You can consciously do things to affect these variables, but your body and parasympathetic nervous system do a better job in general. When your body has difficulty maintaining homeostasis it will eventually alert your conscious, so that you might put on a sweater, eat, or drink. But bacteria have no consciousness.

 

Furthermore, some of these things demonstrate a lack of self-awareness. Most people don't eat because they are hungry, but due to other factors like the time of day or because they saw something yummy.

[kitkat]

Yes, they react to their environment, but not "on purpose". It is an automatic process, just like for you. Do you monitor and adjust your blood glucose levels, hydration levels, CO2 levels, blood sodium, core temperature, sweat levels, heart rate, blood vessel dilation, ...? Your body does this automatically, although some of these aspects use input from your parasympathetic nervous system. Your cells each maintain their individual homeostasis, and your body as a whole does too. But this isn't what most people mean by "self-awareness". You can consciously do things to affect these variables, but your body and parasympathetic nervous system do a better job in general. When your body has difficulty maintaining homeostasis it will eventually alert your conscious, so that you might put on a sweater, eat, or drink. But bacteria have no consciousness.

 

Furthermore, some of these things demonstrate a lack of self-awareness. Most people don't eat because they are hungry, but due to other factors like the time of day or because they saw something yummy.

 

 

When humans began to study all of the animals that we share this planet with, many of them thought that these animals only acting on instincts (purely pre-programmed behavior responses). However we have learned that this is not entirely true. Ask anyone that has a pet and they will tell you that their animal does think and will create new methods in training their owners. Though we like to believe it is completely under our control.

Bacteria are studied in a controlled environment and not in their natural habitats. Reactions in a controlled environment does not provide any other options but to react to what is stimulating them. I am not saying you are wrong, you are the expert, but microbes studied in a lab may not prove conclusive in observing behavior correctly.

 

The microscopic parasites that have all kinds of new strategies which are quite impressive that one can only conclude that they are thinking. How can science insist that this is not the case, I don't get it.

[vordhosbn]

Software can be programmed to be adaptable, does that mean that computer programs "think"?

[Mr Skeptic]

When humans began to study all of the animals that we share this planet with, many of them thought that these animals only acting on instincts (purely pre-programmed behavior responses). However we have learned that this is not entirely true. Ask anyone that has a pet and they will tell you that their animal does think and will create new methods in training their owners. Though we like to believe it is completely under our control.

 

Yes, we all have instincts (animals and humans). I think learning is an instinct, by the way.

 

Bacteria are studied in a controlled environment and not in their natural habitats. Reactions in a controlled environment does not provide any other options but to react to what is stimulating them. I am not saying you are wrong, you are the expert, but microbes studied in a lab may not prove conclusive in observing behavior correctly.

 

The microscopic parasites that have all kinds of new strategies which are quite impressive that one can only conclude that they are thinking. How can science insist that this is not the case, I don't get it.

 

Yes, lab conditions can be less complex than the real world. But if you put humans or animals in a lab, they can still react independently. Besides, how could bacteria think? They don't have a nervous system, they have only one cell. Now, I'm not saying that they have zero capacity for thought, but it will have to be close to that. They can probably tell time, for example. It would be interesting to know whether they are capable of pattern recognition.

[CharonY]

This discussion is becoming more philosophical than biological. If it goes further down that road I think it might be more appropriate to be moved there.