How do gluons work?

[swansont]

Thank you grandpa, but I know accelerating electrons will emit photons as well as chemical reactions.

 

These are very minor sources don't you agree? It they were not, then our energy troubles would have been over a long time ago.

 

I don't see the logic here.

 

So, where is this tremendous source of photons for nuclear fusion come from?

 

Are you asking where the photons come from (process) or where the energy for the photons comes from? Each question has been previously answered.

 

The energy source is the fusion reaction, which, as has already been mentioned, releases more than 25 MeV for a complete cycle. The source of the photons includes reactions in the fusion process and blackbody radiation from the scattering of charged particles.

[Widdekind]

As granpa has said, you accelerate a free charge. Or, you can have some sort of transition: atomic, molecular or nuclear de-excitation. Or you can annihilate matter and antimatter.

 

The sun, being a plasma, has lots of charges bouncing around, undergoing accelerations when they scatter.

 

Photon non-conservation ([math]\hat{a}^{\pm}_{\vec{k}}[/math]) seems associated with "wave function collapse" (i.e., "quantum jump") processes.

[swansont]

Photon non-conservation ([math]\hat{a}^{\pm}_{\vec{k}}[/math]) seems associated with "wave function collapse" (i.e., "quantum jump") processes.

 

Those aren't synonymous, but yes, molecular/atomic/nuclear transitions are quantum jumps. Blackbody radiation is described differently.

[vuquta]

I don't see the logic here.

 

 

 

Are you asking where the photons come from (process) or where the energy for the photons comes from? Each question has been previously answered.

 

The energy source is the fusion reaction, which, as has already been mentioned, releases more than 25 MeV for a complete cycle. The source of the photons includes reactions in the fusion process and blackbody radiation from the scattering of charged particles.

 

OK, we have accelerating electrons I guess from the fusion.

 

But, you are not telling me where they come from with the fusion. This should be part of the standard model.

[swansont]

OK, we have accelerating electrons I guess from the fusion.

 

But, you are not telling me where they come from with the fusion. This should be part of the standard model.

 

The wiki page Severian pointed you to has two distinct steps in the PPI chain where gammas are produced. The other PP chains have gammas shown in the reactions as well.

[vuquta]

The wiki page Severian pointed you to has two distinct steps in the PPI chain where gammas are produced. The other PP chains have gammas shown in the reactions as well.

 

Yes, I went through that.

 

But, there are chains that do not appear to generate photons.

 

Further gamma photons cause the Compton effect, but where are the infrared photons? I did not see them in this article.

 

Anyway, the article kept claiming energy is produced from a chain.

 

You cannot just simply say energy since here on earth we measure this in term of the infrared photons.

 

So, if we measure infrared photons from the sun, then they must be sourced.

Edited September 15, 2010 by vuquta

[swansont]

Yes, I went through that.

 

But, there are chains that do not appear to generate photons.

 

Further gamma photons cause the Compton effect, but where are the infrared photons? I did not see them in this article.

 

Anyway, the article kept claiming energy is produced from a chain.

 

You cannot just simply say energy since here on earth we measure this in term of the infrared photons.

 

So, if we measure infrared photons from the sun, then they must be sourced.

 

We measure it in terms of visible photons, too, and some UV, and some RF, etc. The sun is a pretty good blackbody source, and gives off a blackbody spectrum. Blackbody radiation is a process separate from nuclear physics, so it's not going to be included in the fusion reactions. All it "cares" about is that the source has a temperature. The sun is hot. All of those nuclei bouncing around after the energy conversion means they have a lot of kinetic energy.

 

Blackbody radiation. I've mentioned it before. That's the source of many of the photons. Go look it up already, and stop complaining that you haven't been given the answer.

[IM Egdall]

Yes, the core of the Sun produces gamma ray photons. But, as a result, the surface of the Sun gives off photons in lots of lower frequencies. That's why we see ultraviolet, visible, infrared, and other frequencies of photons radiated by the Sun.

 

The nuclear furnace in the core of the Sun fuses hydrogen nucleii into helium nucleii, and gives off gamma ray photons in the process. Where do all these gamma ray photons go? Initially they are absorbed in only a few millimeters of solar plasma surrounding the Sun’s core. They are then re-emitted in random directions (and at slightly lower energies). This continued absorption and re-emission continues throughout the Sun until lower energy photons finally reach the Sun’s surface and are emitted into space as solar radiation. A photon from the Sun’s core scatters a stupendous number of times on the way out; on the order of 10²⁰ times. Scientists estimate that it takes 10,000 to 170,000 years for the radiation from the core of the Sun to reach the surface.

This means that the sunlight we see in the sky today began in its core somewhere between the appearance of the human species some 170,000 years ago and the end of the last Ice Age in 8000 BC!

 

<BR clear=all> B. Schutz, p. 128

 

 

[vuquta]

We measure it in terms of visible photons, too, and some UV, and some RF, etc. The sun is a pretty good blackbody source, and gives off a blackbody spectrum. Blackbody radiation is a process separate from nuclear physics, so it's not going to be included in the fusion reactions. All it "cares" about is that the source has a temperature. The sun is hot. All of those nuclei bouncing around after the energy conversion means they have a lot of kinetic energy.

 

Blackbody radiation. I've mentioned it before. That's the source of many of the photons. Go look it up already, and stop complaining that you haven't been given the answer.

 

Well, a blackbody does not get hot for no reason.

 

So, nuclear fusion needs to show the source of the photons and this has nothing to do with blackbody radiation.

That article fudged and did not indicate the source except for some gamma rays.

 

The rest it simply called energy and the article did not indicate where the photons come from. The energy must be in the form of photons since that is what strikes the earth.

[Klaynos]

A contained fusion reactor generates a lot of energy in the bodies involved in the fusion processes and the container around them, this energy is thermal, and travels outwards from the core which is why the sun is hot, you then have a hot object which will have a black body spectrum, go look up black body radiation.

[vuquta]

A contained fusion reactor generates a lot of energy in the bodies involved in the fusion processes and the container around them, this energy is thermal, and travels outwards from the core which is why the sun is hot, you then have a hot object which will have a black body spectrum, go look up black body radiation.

 

This does not solve the problem.

 

We cannot just use an arbitrary term called energy. We know specifically it is photons.

 

So, the question is with fusion, what is the complete source of all photons. They cannot just appear out of nowhere.

[swansont]

This does not solve the problem.

 

We cannot just use an arbitrary term called energy. We know specifically it is photons.

 

So, the question is with fusion, what is the complete source of all photons. They cannot just appear out of nowhere.

 

 

Mass is the source of the energy, which is not an arbitrary term. The reaction cycle releases >25 MeV. That all eventually ends up as photons. Via the processes already mentioned.

[IM Egdall]

In the the nuclear furnace in the core of the Sun, through a multi-step process, 4 hydrogen nuclei (4 protons) are converted into one helium nucleus (2 protons and 2 neutrons) plus photons (and neutrinos.) The mass of the four initial hydrogen nuclei is 6.693x10-27 kg. The mass of the resultant single helium nucleus is 6.645x10-27 kg. So there is a mass loss of 0.048x10-27 kg in the process (roughly 1 percent). This lost mass is converted to energy via E = mc2, resulting in 6 high energy gamma ray photons. (REF: R. A. Freedman and W. J. Kaufmann II, Universe, p. 392)

[vuquta]

In the the nuclear furnace in the core of the Sun, through a multi-step process, 4 hydrogen nuclei (4 protons) are converted into one helium nucleus (2 protons and 2 neutrons) plus photons (and neutrinos.) The mass of the four initial hydrogen nuclei is 6.693x10-27 kg. The mass of the resultant single helium nucleus is 6.645x10-27 kg. So there is a mass loss of 0.048x10-27 kg in the process (roughly 1 percent). This lost mass is converted to energy via E = mc2, resulting in 6 high energy gamma ray photons. (REF: R. A. Freedman and W. J. Kaufmann II, Universe, p. 392)

 

Yea, agreed.

 

Source the IR photons since that is what we measure here on earth.

 

You are just claiming they appear all of a sudden out of nowhere.

 

Gamma ray photons cause the Compton effect.

[swansont]

Yea, agreed.

 

Source the IR photons since that is what we measure here on earth.

 

You are just claiming they appear all of a sudden out of nowhere.

 

Gamma ray photons cause the Compton effect.

 

 

The answer has been given to you.

[Mr Skeptic]

This does not solve the problem.

 

We cannot just use an arbitrary term called energy. We know specifically it is photons.

 

So, the question is with fusion, what is the complete source of all photons. They cannot just appear out of nowhere.

 

Photons come from energy, any source of energy at all. You can use fluorescence or Compton effect to get several photons from one more energetic photon, lightbulbs of various kinds to get photons from electricity, chemoluminescence to get photons from chemical energy, hot objects to get photons from blackbody radiation, nuclear reactions to get photons from nuclear energy, annihilation to get photons from matter+antimatter, and several other methods I haven't thought of. Definitely not from nowhere though

 

On top of that, photon number cannot be conserved because photons are their own antiparticle.

[vuquta]

Photons come from energy, any source of energy at all. You can use fluorescence or Compton effect to get several photons from one more energetic photon, lightbulbs of various kinds to get photons from electricity, chemoluminescence to get photons from chemical energy, hot objects to get photons from blackbody radiation, nuclear reactions to get photons from nuclear energy, annihilation to get photons from matter+antimatter, and several other methods I haven't thought of. Definitely not from nowhere though

 

On top of that, photon number cannot be conserved because photons are their own antiparticle.

 

OK, well, I have not seen an accounting of infrared photons.

I have see the usage of the abstract term energy and then this turns into IR photons.

 

I am not sure how the abstract turns into the concrete. Do you know?

 

I am simply not seeing the source of IR photons (and lots of them) from fusion, yet we can account for them specifically in a chemical reaction.

[swansont]

Fusion does not directly produce IR photons. They are produced from the other processes discussed in this thread. What is lacking in these answers that have been given, that you persist in asking the same question over and over?

[Mr Skeptic]

OK, well, I have not seen an accounting of infrared photons.

 

That's only because you have your eyes closed and your ears covered and are singing la la la la la.

 

I have see the usage of the abstract term energy and then this turns into IR photons.

 

I am not sure how the abstract turns into the concrete. Do you know?

 

The abstract does not turn into the concrete. Energy is real, even though it has many forms. Mass is also real even though it has many forms. Photons are also real even though they have many colors.

 

I am simply not seeing the source of IR photons (and lots of them) from fusion, yet we can account for them specifically in a chemical reaction.

 

There's lots of ways to get photons, ultimately it is due to the energy released from the fusion process. Just to give an example, it is necessary that a charged particle releases electromagnetic waves when it accelerates, and the ions in the sun collide with each other and also with photons, accelerating them and forcing them to release photons as required by the laws of physics. It can't not release photons.

[inflector]

OK, well, I have not seen an accounting of infrared photons.

I have see the usage of the abstract term energy and then this turns into IR photons.

 

I am not sure how the abstract turns into the concrete. Do you know?

 

I am simply not seeing the source of IR photons (and lots of them) from fusion, yet we can account for them specifically in a chemical reaction.

 

Look, it's real simple. Depending on the reaction, fusion creates energy in two forms:

 

Kinetic - where the resultant particles of the reaction are ejected from the point of fusion at high speed. This kinetic energy adds to the heat of the sun when these particles scatter off of other particles just like hitting the cue ball into a rack of balls in a pool game scatters the other balls and evens out the energy.

 

Gamma Rays - high energy photons are created in some reactions. For fusion in the sun's core, these photons won't make it out of the sun but they do result in increasing the kinetic energy of the surrounding particles through Compton scattering.

 

Unless it happens on the surface of the sun — which is only a very tiny fraction of the fusion that occurs — the energy of the fusion reaction gets converted to heat. The heat eventually flows to the surface where blackbody radiation occurs thereby creating the photons that the rest of the solar system sees, just like heating up anything to high temperatures creates photons because of the acceleration of the charged particles bouncing off each other at high temperature.

[vuquta]

Look, it's real simple. Depending on the reaction, fusion creates energy in two forms:

 

Kinetic - where the resultant particles of the reaction are ejected from the point of fusion at high speed. This kinetic energy adds to the heat of the sun when these particles scatter off of other particles just like hitting the cue ball into a rack of balls in a pool game scatters the other balls and evens out the energy.

 

Gamma Rays - high energy photons are created in some reactions. For fusion in the sun's core, these photons won't make it out of the sun but they do result in increasing the kinetic energy of the surrounding particles through Compton scattering.

 

Unless it happens on the surface of the sun which is only a very tiny fraction of the fusion that occurs the energy of the fusion reaction gets converted to heat. The heat eventually flows to the surface where blackbody radiation occurs thereby creating the photons that the rest of the solar system sees, just like heating up anything to high temperatures creates photons because of the acceleration of the charged particles bouncing off each other at high temperature.

 

OK, based on the link provided on this thread that supplies all the answers to the problem,

 

The pp I branch

3

2He + 3

2He → 4

2He + 2 1

1H + 12.86 MeV

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain_reaction

 

Now, where does the kinetic energy come from. Note, this branch does not offer particles to create this kinetic energy and thus black body radiation.

 

It only offers the abstraction of 12.86 MeV which we have to conclude is radiation or photons without being sourced.

Edited September 19, 2010 by vuquta

[swansont]

OK, based on the link provided on this thread that supplies all the answers to the problem,

 

The pp I branch

3

2He + 3

2He → 4

2He + 2 1

1H + 12.86 MeV

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain_reaction

 

Now, where does the kinetic energy come from. Note, this branch does not offer particles to create this kinetic energy and thus black body radiation.

 

It only offers the abstraction of 12.86 MeV which we have to conclude is radiation or photons without being sourced.

 

12.86 MeV (26.7 MeV for the whole cycle) is the total energy converted from mass to other forms. Some of that will be the gammas, the rest will be kinetic energy of the particles produced in the fusion steps.

[Widdekind]

Those aren't synonymous, but yes, molecular/atomic/nuclear transitions are quantum jumps. Blackbody radiation is described differently.

 

Doesn't BB radiation ultimately stem from collisional excitation / de-excitation processes ?

[swansont]

Doesn't BB radiation ultimately stem from collisional excitation / de-excitation processes ?

 

No. Excitation and de-excitation give a discrete spectrum. These e.g. give you lines of emission and absorption on top of the continuous blackbody spectrum of a star.

[vuquta]

12.86 MeV (26.7 MeV for the whole cycle) is the total energy converted from mass to other forms. Some of that will be the gammas, the rest will be kinetic energy of the particles produced in the fusion steps.

 

Yea, but this conversion requires an axiomatic method for the conversion.

 

We do not have that.

You cannot just use an absract term energy to create photons.

 

They must be sourced.