first contact

[MRlogic]

Hello again, this is my second thread about what would happen when we humans make first contact with another advanced alien race. i would like your opinion.

 

how would we handle that situation?

 

how might the aliens handle the situation?

 

would there be peace or war?

Edited September 22, 2010 by MRlogic

[Ophiolite]

The key to your answer is in the word alien.

 

The aliens would be alien. You need to abandon thoughts of all SF movies. These aliens are different in ways we cannot imagine and in ways we might never understand. (Some men never understand their wives and allegedly they are members of the same species.) Trying to extrapolate what might happen when we meet may be an amusing thought experiment, but I seriously doubt it is capable of generating a realistic appraisal of the probable options.

[MRlogic]

The key to your answer is in the word alien.

 

The aliens would be alien. You need to abandon thoughts of all SF movies. These aliens are different in ways we cannot imagine and in ways we might never understand. (Some men never understand their wives and allegedly they are members of the same species.) Trying to extrapolate what might happen when we meet may be an amusing thought experiment, but I seriously doubt it is capable of generating a realistic appraisal of the probable options.

 

 

ok lets start with a scenario

 

lets say the aliens discover our world and come here with there technology not knowing of any intelligent life. they take one of there dropships and lands in lets say L.A. they exit the ship and look at us confused. what then?

[Ophiolite]

lets say the aliens discover our world and come here with there technology not knowing of any intelligent life. they take one of there dropships and lands in lets say L.A. they exit the ship and look at us confused. what then?

Apparently you didn't understand my post. I said they were alien.

 

1. What makes you think they will have technology?

2. What makes you think they will be intelligent?

3. What makes you think they will be able to perceive us as intelligent?

4. What makes you think they will visit the Earth rather than Mercury (lots of solar energy), or Jupiter (great magentic fields), or Venus (nice and hot and sulphurous) or Titan (loads of lovely methane)?

5. What makes you think they will have spaceships?

6. What makes you think they are capable of confusion?

 

They are alien. Speculation is futile.

[MRlogic]

Apparently you didn't understand my post. I said they were alien.

 

1. What makes you think they will have technology?

2. What makes you think they will be intelligent?

3. What makes you think they will be able to perceive us as intelligent?

4. What makes you think they will visit the Earth rather than Mercury (lots of solar energy), or Jupiter (great magentic fields), or Venus (nice and hot and sulphurous) or Titan (loads of lovely methane)?

5. What makes you think they will have spaceships?

6. What makes you think they are capable of confusion?

 

They are alien. Speculation is futile.

 

 

because how can they get here without intelligence or technology. they would find us intelligent because there are civilizations all over the planet, technology, GOVERNMENT thats a big part too, the ability to adapt. how could they find our planet without spacecrafts. but I wasnt assuming anything i was puting together a fake scenario, a what if. why would they want a planet with sulpher or methane(high levels).

[Ophiolite]

because how can they get here without intelligence or technology.

Because they are aliens. Bees are capable of constructing beautifully precise honeycombs whose walls meet at the optimal angle for maximum use of space. They are not generally thought to be intelligent. Many species across our planet achieve things that we can only mimic with technology. If you presume intelligence and technology are necessary for interstellar travel then you have not understood the meaning of alien.

 

they would find us intelligent because there are civilizations all over the planet,

They might consider this clear proof that we are not intelligent. You are viewing this from a human standpoint. You think the aliens will think like us, make judgements like us, value what we value. They won't. They are alien.

 

GOVERNMENT thats a big part too,

There are plenty on this planent who view government as evidence that we are not intelligent! But more to the point you are assuming that the aliens will exercise control over their population and make group decisions in the same way we do. Indeed you assume that they will exercise control at all, make decisions at all, which they may not - because they are alien.

 

how could they find our planet without spacecrafts.

They may be a species that has evolved to live in space. There are plenty of SF stories with half plausible explanations of how that might be possible. You have failed to recognise that aliens would do things in a different way. They are alien.

 

why would they want a planet with sulpher or methane(high levels).

Oh, really! Have you thought about this at all? Their metabolisms may depend upon these materials. You are assuming a bunch of creatures living in 1g environment, in an oxygen rich atmosphere, terrestrial beasts - you probably even think they are likely to be bipedal. None of this will probably apply. They are frigging alien.

 

but I wasnt assuming anything i was puting together a fake scenario,

But your example scenario makes so many assumptions as to the characteristics and motivations of the aliens that you have created a scene of immensely high improbability. You just seem to keep forgetting these are aliens.

[zapatos]

Because they are aliens. Bees are capable of constructing beautifully precise honeycombs whose walls meet at the optimal angle for maximum use of space. They are not generally thought to be intelligent. Many species across our planet achieve things that we can only mimic with technology. If you presume intelligence and technology are necessary for interstellar travel then you have not understood the meaning of alien.

 

It seems more reasonable to me to assume aliens visiting earth will have intelligence and technology than not. Can you give a scenario for interstellar space travel that does not include intelligence and technology?

 

They might consider this clear proof that we are not intelligent. You are viewing this from a human standpoint. You think the aliens will think like us, make judgements like us, value what we value. They won't. They are alien.

 

You only assume they won't.

 

They may be a species that has evolved to live in space. There are plenty of SF stories with half plausible explanations of how that might be possible. You have failed to recognise that aliens would do things in a different way. They are alien.

 

You need to abandon thoughts of all SF movies.

 

But your example scenario makes so many assumptions as to the characteristics and motivations of the aliens that you have created a scene of immensely high improbability. You just seem to keep forgetting these are aliens.

 

 

Why are you trying to shut down MRlogic? What is wrong with speculating about what might happen? Speculation may be futile for you, but it may be a benefit to others. If you fnd this a waste of time, please move on.

[Mr Skeptic]

If you are familiar with starcraft, think of the two alien species, the zerg and the protoss. The zerg are a bio-technological species, they don't have technology as we do but instead they have a type of creature that does that for them. Their social structure is a hive-mind. Perhaps they would see our technology as strange rock formations, and us as unintelligent creatures much like ants that build stuff. If they do recognize us as technological and intelligent, they might be thoroughly disgusted by how little we respect our hive leaders.

 

The protoss have a living crystal quality to them, although I think the protoss themselves are biological. But if you go with some of the living crystal species of sci-fi, they might not even see us as alive at all.

 

Personally, I think that any aliens visiting us would be intelligent, technological, and social... but there is no guarantee. They could just as easily be interstellar microbes.

[zapatos]

If you are familiar with starcraft, think of the two alien species, the zerg and the protoss. The zerg are a bio-technological species, they don't have technology as we do but instead they have a type of creature that does that for them. Their social structure is a hive-mind. Perhaps they would see our technology as strange rock formations, and us as unintelligent creatures much like ants that build stuff. If they do recognize us as technological and intelligent, they might be thoroughly disgusted by how little we respect our hive leaders.

 

The protoss have a living crystal quality to them, although I think the protoss themselves are biological. But if you go with some of the living crystal species of sci-fi, they might not even see us as alive at all.

 

Personally, I think that any aliens visiting us would be intelligent, technological, and social... but there is no guarantee. They could just as easily be interstellar microbes.

 

But other than some form of life that just happened to be floating by, don't you think that they'd figure out we are alive? Assuming that faster than light travel is not possible and that getting here would take some significant effort, I'd think they'd need a reason to visit, such as wondering about why this solar system was putting out unusual signals (sitcoms, telephone calls, etc.). And even if they couldn't figure out what we were, they could probably figure out it was us causing the signals.

[Mr Skeptic]

What signals? We've advanced way past the era of analogue signals, and now have digital signals that are barely distinguishable from noise. Maybe they came here to mine one of our moons.

[zapatos]

"A rather easier task would be to detect our military radars. The bigger ones typically boast a megawatt of power, and are focused into beams that are a degree or two across. There are enough such radars that, at any given time, they cover a percent of the sky or so. The signal from the most powerful of these could be found at 50 light-years distance in a few minutes time with a receiving antenna 1,000 feet in diameter. Indeed, these military radars are the only signals routinely transmitted from Earth that are intense enough to be detectable at interstellar distances with setups equivalent to our own SETI experiments.

 

Bottom line? With radio technology slightly more advanced than our own, Homo sapiens is detectable out to a distance of roughly 50 light-years. Within that distance are about 5,000 stars, all of which have had the enviable pleasure of receiving terrestrial television. And each day, a fresh stellar system is exposed to signals from Earth."

 

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_aliens_031023.html

 

And maybe they would be here to mine one of our moons, but if they were in our solar system, wouldn't it be hard to miss us?

[Airbrush]

It seems more reasonable to me to assume aliens visiting earth will have intelligence and technology than not. Can you give a scenario for interstellar space travel that does not include intelligence and technology?

 

Why are you trying to shut down MRlogic? What is wrong with speculating about what might happen? Speculation may be futile for you, but it may be a benefit to others. If you fnd this a waste of time, please move on.

 

I agree. The question of what can happen if aliens come here is valid.

 

It seems obvious that most likely, if they can find us and come here, then they are FAR more advanced than we are, and may understand us better than we understand ourselves. It would be easy for them to annihilate us. "War of the Worlds" is unlikely. There would be no contest, we lose and they do whatever they want. As Stephen Hawking speculated, it would probably not be good for us if they find us.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Airbrush

[Mr Skeptic]

"A rather easier task would be to detect our military radars. The bigger ones typically boast a megawatt of power, and are focused into beams that are a degree or two across. There are enough such radars that, at any given time, they cover a percent of the sky or so. The signal from the most powerful of these could be found at 50 light-years distance in a few minutes time with a receiving antenna 1,000 feet in diameter. Indeed, these military radars are the only signals routinely transmitted from Earth that are intense enough to be detectable at interstellar distances with setups equivalent to our own SETI experiments.

 

Bottom line? With radio technology slightly more advanced than our own, Homo sapiens is detectable out to a distance of roughly 50 light-years. Within that distance are about 5,000 stars, all of which have had the enviable pleasure of receiving terrestrial television. And each day, a fresh stellar system is exposed to signals from Earth."

 

http://www.space.com...ens_031023.html

 

OK, so they might detect our radar. They might even be able to conclude that it is for echolocation.

 

And maybe they would be here to mine one of our moons, but if they were in our solar system, wouldn't it be hard to miss us?

 

Maybe. What if they communicate by crafting and transferring messages encoded into DNA? It would be a totally awesome way of communication, and they might never realize that electromagnetic radiation would be a good way to communicate. Or, they could communicate via smells. In any case, if they communicated like this we would probably not realize they communicate so well nor even at all.

[Moontanman]

First off MRlogic is making some assumptions and while most people assume the same thing the word aliens does not necessarily mean complex intelligent technological beings. but if we assume that then we have to speculate why they are here.

 

Explorers that stumbled on us?

 

Tracking down our radio signals?

 

Colonizers?

 

Missionaries of some sort?

 

Defective space craft and looking for someplace to land and repair?

 

Conquerors?

 

I am sure there are many more possibilities but to speculate you really have to choose a reason why they are here and go from there.

 

Personally I think technological advanced aliens would have no need for planets and if they are here they are exploiting the resources of the solar system to build more space colonies to house thier population before they move on to another star. Their interest in us would be minimal at most...

 

I think that is indeed the reality of the UFO phenomena but I have enough bruises from promoting that scenario

[zapatos]

Maybe. What if they communicate by crafting and transferring messages encoded into DNA? It would be a totally awesome way of communication, and they might never realize that electromagnetic radiation would be a good way to communicate. Or, they could communicate via smells. In any case, if they communicated like this we would probably not realize they communicate so well nor even at all.

 

Yes, I agree that there are many possible scenarios where we could look at each other and not recognize what we are seeing. However, assuming we both grew up with the same laws of physics, with the same physical types of actions going on around us (things affected by gravity, stars giving off radiation, etc.), then it seems likely to me that we would have some overlap in our understanding of the universe. There may be properties of the universe that we utilize that are not utilized by aliens (such as electromagnetic communication), and vice versa. But if we had common use of some of the properties, I would expect that we would most likely at least recognize each other as something significant. Maybe not much of an understanding of each other, but at least recognizing that this other thing is not your normal hunk of rock.

[MRlogic]

I agree. The question of what can happen if aliens come here is valid.

 

It seems obvious that most likely, if they can find us and come here, then they are FAR more advanced than we are, and may understand us better than we understand ourselves. It would be easy for them to annihilate us. "War of the Worlds" is unlikely. There would be no contest, we lose and they do whatever they want. As Stephen Hawking speculated, it would probably not be good for us if they find us.

 

 

do you think they would share there technology with us?

[Airbrush]

do you think they would share there technology with us?

 

Interesting question. Why would they? Do we share technology with animals? OK, so our pets enjoy our technology, but other animals and plants have our technology used against them to FEED us.

 

Earth seems to be a unique planet. Problably not another like Earth within a hundred light years. Earth may be very desireable to ETs. They could get rid of humans and control Earth. Or, if they don't want Earth, we would be a curiosity and of interest to them. Then all they would do is observe covertly, using robotic probes and transmit their findings back to the home planet.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Airbrush

[Ophiolite]

It seems more reasonable to me to assume aliens visiting earth will have intelligence and technology than not.

I agree it seems reasonable. The difficulty is that we have knowledge of only a single biosphere. This necessarily gives us a biased view of what life is like. Until we have encountered other lifeforms this bias will remain in place. I also imagine that visiting aliens will have intelligence and technology, but that may be a limitation of my imagination.

 

Can you give a scenario for interstellar space travel that does not include intelligence and technology?

Well, as I noted above, I have a limited imagination, but here are some thoughts. Envisage a lifeform that has multiple forms in its life cycle, like pupae-caterpillar-butterfly. This life form begins as a 'seed' which grows into a tree like organism. When full grown the 'tree' divides into a number of mobile organisms we might just about recognise as 'animals'. These seek out other 'trees' which they inseminate. (There's that Terracentric bias showing.) The 'tree' then disperses new 'seed' by explosively launching itself into the air and coming down a considerable distance away. (Larry Niven proposed exactly such a tree in one of his SF novels.) The further the 'tree' can travel the better chance it has of exposing its seed to new ground. Evolution leads to some 'trees' being able reach escape velocity. Now they are in space, the seeds lie dormant for hundreds of thousands of years until they arrive on Earth.

Farfetched? Of course it is, but that's mainly because we are not used to thinking in such terms. We don't understand what alien really means.

 

 

You only assume they won't.

No. I predict it based upon the probability that they truly are alien.

 

 

 

You need to abandon thoughts of all SF movies.

I didn't mention SF movies. Why did you? I mentioned SF stories. Hard SF is often written by active scientists, or authros with scientific training who do extensive research before makeing their proposals. Of course they remain stories, but some of the proposed life forms are wholly credible.

 

 

Why are you trying to shut down MRlogic? What is wrong with speculating about what might happen? Speculation may be futile for you, but it may be a benefit to others. If you fnd this a waste of time, please move on.

 

 

Why are you trying to shut down MRlogic? What is wrong with speculating about what might happen?

I am not trying to shut him down. I am trying to expand his horizons. I am trying to help him see that his scenario may be restricted in scope. I have no power to shut him down (and no desire to do so). MRLogic is perfectly free to place me on ignore if he finds my posts unwelcome.

(I might ask why are your trying to shut down my efforts to expand MRLogic's horizon? You see how silly the question is?)

 

Speculation may be futile for you, but it may be a benefit to others. If you fnd this a waste of time, please move on.

It's a discussion forum. I am not obligated to agree with the premises of each poster.

 

I'm sorry you fail to see the restrictive nature of MRLogic's proposed scenario. I regret you do not wish to join me in expanding the scope of the scenario. Despite these disappointments I do not intend to invite you to move on.

[Moontanman]

John Varley suggests organisms that spread via seeds launched into space in his Gaen trilogy. It's not as far fetched as it might seem at first glance and we have left out the possibility of machines arriving instead of biological aliens. A machine might view our planet as nothing but a source of refined metal, ignoring us completely as it "eats" our cities and vehicles to make copies of it's self.

 

I think we can take MRlogics second scenario and speculate about it if we are specific about the characteristics of the aliens.

 

But I take exception to aliens landing anywhere on the earth, I think they would be more likely to come into orbit and contact us...

[zapatos]

Well, as I noted above, I have a limited imagination, but here are some thoughts. Envisage a lifeform that has multiple forms in its life cycle, like pupae-caterpillar-butterfly. This life form begins as a 'seed' which grows into a tree like organism. When full grown the 'tree' divides into a number of mobile organisms we might just about recognise as 'animals'. These seek out other 'trees' which they inseminate. (There's that Terracentric bias showing.) The 'tree' then disperses new 'seed' by explosively launching itself into the air and coming down a considerable distance away. (Larry Niven proposed exactly such a tree in one of his SF novels.) The further the 'tree' can travel the better chance it has of exposing its seed to new ground. Evolution leads to some 'trees' being able reach escape velocity. Now they are in space, the seeds lie dormant for hundreds of thousands of years until they arrive on Earth.

Farfetched? Of course it is, but that's mainly because we are not used to thinking in such terms. We don't understand what alien really means.

 

It is an impressive tree (or whatever type of organism that has developed) that launches its seed with a velocity allowing it to escape the gravitational pull of its star and move into interstellar space. It is interesting that you suggest this, yet respond to MRlogic's scenario of us being visited by intelligent aliens by saying that "Speculation is futile." Perhaps I misread your posts but it sounded to me like you flatly put down every statement he made, or assumption he wanted to start with.

 

I didn't mention SF movies. Why did you? I mentioned SF stories. Hard SF is often written by active scientists, or authros with scientific training who do extensive research before makeing their proposals. Of course they remain stories, but some of the proposed life forms are wholly credible.

 

Actually you did. I was trying to be clever by quoting you from your first post. I thought it interesting that you told MRlogic to "abandon thoughts of all SF movies" when he hadn't even mentioned them, and then a few posts later you use SF stories in support of your position. I'll try to be more obvious next time.

 

 

I regret you do not wish to join me in expanding the scope of the scenario.

 

I thought that was what I had been doing in my posts. One of us should go back and re-read what I said in them.

[Ophiolite]

It is interesting that you suggest this, yet respond to MRlogic's scenario of us being visited by intelligent aliens by saying that "Speculation is futile."

I offered that speculation at your request. You asked for an example of interstellar travel that involved neither intelligence or technology. I gave one. I did not volunteer it. I hesitated a considerable time before delivering it and only did so in order to be polite. It is inappropriate for you now to implicitly criticise me for meeting your request.

 

Perhaps I misread your posts but it sounded to me like you flatly put down every statement he made, or assumption he wanted to start with.

I pointed out what I believed to be shrotcomings in each of his statements. He responded by challenging each of mine. I have no problem with his challenges to my statements. Why do you have a problem with my challenges to his. (If you don't have a problem with it, why are you even bringing it up.)

 

Actually you did. I was trying to be clever by quoting you from your first post. I thought it interesting that you told MRlogic to "abandon thoughts of all SF movies" when he hadn't even mentioned them, and then a few posts later you use SF stories in support of your position. I'll try to be more obvious next time.

That would be preferable. I'm hardly going to read my own posts.

 

I repeat, there is a world of difference between SF movies (most of them) and SF stories (the high quality, hard SF variety). There is also a world of differnce in the context in the two cases.

 

I thought that was what I had been doing in my posts. One of us should go back and re-read what I said in them.

Let me know how that turns out for you.

[Mr Skeptic]

For another example of unintelligent alien life: microbes hitching a ride on space rocks. Every so often, a meteor collides with earth hard enough to launch debris into space (this obviously occurs more often for smaller planets with no atmosphere). So, microbes could end up doing spaceflight without doing rocket science. Occasionally space debris gets launched out of the solar system by interactions with multiple large objects (slingshot effect). While it would be a cold, harsh, absurdly slow ride, were microbes to survive this they could colonize other systems -- all without intelligence. Obviously, such microbes couldn't care less about humans, because they aren't smart enough to care (incidentally, care being a human concept?).

[MRlogic]

For another example of unintelligent alien life: microbes hitching a ride on space rocks. Every so often, a meteor collides with earth hard enough to launch debris into space (this obviously occurs more often for smaller planets with no atmosphere). So, microbes could end up doing spaceflight without doing rocket science. Occasionally space debris gets launched out of the solar system by interactions with multiple large objects (slingshot effect). While it would be a cold, harsh, absurdly slow ride, were microbes to survive this they could colonize other systems -- all without intelligence. Obviously, such microbes couldn't care less about humans, because they aren't smart enough to care (incidentally, care being a human concept?).

 

 

what if that alien race that come across our planet has never made first contact either?

[Airbrush]

what if that alien race that come across our planet has never made first contact either?

 

That is a possibility, but like winning the lottery, a low probability event. Much higher probability is that the alien ETIs who discover us, will probably have discovered many other planets with life, even intelligent life, during thousands of years of exploration. Because once an alien race has the ability for interstellar travel, they can send multiple missions soon after achieving that ability.

 

As Carl Sagan said long ago, there will hardly be any contest between alien races. "Star Wars" is unlikely, since the superior one will most likely be hundreds or thousands, or even millions, of years advanced over the next nearest competitors. One will dominate a large region. The ETI that reaches Earth will probably be thousands of years advanced beyond our technology. Look at how on Earth technology of only 100 years advanced is vastly superior to the inferior technological level. Like fighting the Civil War using WWII technology, there would be no contest.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Airbrush

[Moontanman]

That would be a low probability event. Much higher probability is that the alien ETIs who discover us, will probably have discovered many other planets with life. Because once an alien race has the ability for interstellar travel, they can send multiple missions soon (in astronomical terms) after achieving that ability.

 

Also, as Carl Sagan said long ago, there will hardly be any contest between alien races. "Star Wars" is unlikely, since the superior one will most likely be hundreds or thousands, or even millions, of years advanced over the next nearest competitor. The ETI that reaches Earth will probably be thousands of years advanced beyond our technology. Look at how on Earth technology of only 100 years advanced is vastly superior to the inferior technological level. Like fighting the Civil War using WWII technology, there would be no contest.

 

I know everyone here doesn't read science fiction but Harry Turtledove wrote a long series of books about just that scenario. it starts out at the beginning of WW2 when the world is locked in global warfare and aliens invade and take on all sides... One of those alternate histories he is so good at, there are 8 books in the series.

 

We might be in a unusual position with two stars only 4.5 light years away and both of them are high metal stars that could have planets... earth like planets... but Harry Turtledoves aliens come from Tau Ceti...