first contact

[zapatos]

Personally I think technological advanced aliens would have no need for planets and if they are here they are exploiting the resources of the solar system to build more space colonies to house thier population before they move on to another star. Their interest in us would be minimal at most...

 

I think that is indeed the reality of the UFO phenomena but I have enough bruises from promoting that scenario

So are you saying that you believe that some portion of UFO sightings are indeed aliens? If so, I'd like to hear why you think that. (I promise I won't inflict any bruising! )

[Moontanman]

So are you saying that you believe that some portion of UFO sightings are indeed aliens? If so, I'd like to hear why you think that. (I promise I won't inflict any bruising! )

 

Here are three threads where I argue that very point, I am more than willing to argue the point and I have a new thread about Retired air force personal coming out next week about UFOs and nuclear bases. The idea of UFOs being alien space craft has been the subject of a huge disinformation campaign by the US military, I think they are hiding the fact that UFOs are not from the earth.

 

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/50031-foo-fighters/

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/48576-if-aliens-were-visiting-earth/

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/48472-alien-visitation/

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/51954-retired-military-personnel-to-confirm-ufo-incursions-at-american-nuclear-weapons-sites/page__pid__565635#entry565635

[MRlogic]

if we did come across an alien race that has never made first contact either. what would `our government do first, would it be peace talks, weapons, agriculture?

Edited September 24, 2010 by MRlogic

[Moontanman]

Sadly my money is on weapons...

[Mr Skeptic]

if we did come across an alien race that has never made first contact either. what would `our government do first, would it be peace talks, weapons, agriculture?

 

Officially, peace talks. Unofficially, there are enough crazy people that they'd almost certainly get attacked, and of course governments would want first dibs if they could get away with it. Likewise, the aliens would probably officially wish peace talks, whatever their true motivations.

[Moontanman]

They'd probably think we stink....

[MRlogic]

They'd probably think we stink....

 

 

if they did share tech with us what would we take, weapons, interstellar travel tech, medical tech?

[Moontanman]

if they did share tech with us what would we take, weapons, interstellar travel tech, medical tech?

 

 

We could probably learn quite a bit by just passively watching using remote sensing. If for instance they had anti gravity of some sort or a force that mimicked that we could learn a lot just by knowing it's possible and by sensing magnetic fields and anything else we were able to detect emanating from the craft.

[MRlogic]

if the aliens are hostile how would we defend ourselfs

[Ophiolite]

if the aliens are hostile how would we defend ourselfs

Open a restaurant.

[Moontanman]

if the aliens are hostile how would we defend ourselfs

 

 

If aliens are truly hostile, unless they want to enslave us for some reason, i doubt we would know what hit us. From a nerve type gas suddenly appearing and killing everyone to simply smacking the planet with an asteroid. Truly advanced aliens could probably kill us all with very little effort.... There would be no defence...

[Ophiolite]

There would be no defence...

Which is why you open a restaurant serving juicy human steaks and sauteed livers to the aliens. If you can't beat them, join them. Adaptability is our hallmark - let it be our saviour.

[Moontanman]

I am quite certain that if given the opportunity a great many people would cooperate, probably worship said aliens. Humans would adapt to wearing collars and running on leashes just like any other adaptable animal and after they breed us for a suitable attitude we would be theirs to do with as they please.... Much like we do with other animals they could bred us for neonteny and we would end up being adult 6 year olds running behind them happy and content to be owned by our masters...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

Edited September 25, 2010 by Moontanman

[MRlogic]

we shoukdnt fight there tech, we should fight them. im sure there bodies are just as fragile as ours. but for defense we need to keep them as far from the planet as possible, any ideas on how?

[Moontanman]

Nuke em... Nuke em good....

[MRlogic]

nukes dont cause any damage what so ever in space, like a gun doesnt work i space

Edited September 27, 2010 by MRlogic

[Moontanman]

nukes dont cause any damage what so ever in space, like a gun doesnt work i space

 

 

I don't know where you got that from but a gun will indeed work in space as a nuclear device will. You might have to get the nuke closer the the object you want to destroy but a nuclear weapon would indeed work in space. Guns will also work in space, why wouldn't it?

[ydoaPs]

But other than some form of life that just happened to be floating by, don't you think that they'd figure out we are alive? Assuming that faster than light travel is not possible and that getting here would take some significant effort, I'd think they'd need a reason to visit, such as wondering about why this solar system was putting out unusual signals (sitcoms, telephone calls, etc.). And even if they couldn't figure out what we were, they could probably figure out it was us causing the signals.

What if they didn't use the signals. What if their form of life was so different, that they wouldn't even recognize us as life at all? Try reading Speaker for the Dead and the subsequent novels for a good example of something similar.

 

Bottom line? With radio technology slightly more advanced than our own, Homo sapiens is detectable out to a distance of roughly 50 light-years. Within that distance are about 5,000 stars, all of which have had the enviable pleasure of receiving terrestrial television. And each day, a fresh stellar system is exposed to signals from Earth."

Why assume they would even use EM signals? 5000 stars isn't even enough to assume there would be ANY life on one of them let alone intelligent life. Assuming intelligent life, why would they be anywhere near our level of technology? Why assume they would have similar technology?

 

And maybe they would be here to mine one of our moons, but if they were in our solar system, wouldn't it be hard to miss us?

It wouldn't be that hard.

 

Maybe. What if they communicate by crafting and transferring messages encoded into DNA? It would be a totally awesome way of communication, and they might never realize that electromagnetic radiation would be a good way to communicate. Or, they could communicate via smells. In any case, if they communicated like this we would probably not realize they communicate so well nor even at all.

I really didn't like Xenocide and Children of the Mind.

if the aliens are hostile how would we defend ourselfs

Sneeze

nukes dont cause any damage what so ever in space, like a gun doesnt work i space

Nukes DO work in space. They don't require an oxidizer.

And guns that work underwater should work in space.

[Moontanman]

Alien life.... first contact.... Outrageous concepts, our perception of them is often based on what humans have done as they have wandered around on our own planet but i honestly don't think that is a justifiable way to compare the possibilities to. Humans are humans, we react to similar things in similar ways, I seriously do not think that we can expect aliens to act in the same way different human civilizations have. Even if aliens have colonized the entire galaxy it is evident that either they do not have any use for planets or that they have no use for our planet. At the very least they do not mess with primitives the same way we do, humans seem to have a need to mess with anyone they believe to be inferior to themselves.

 

It boils down to a few possibilities, aliens have no interest in other civilizations, much like social insects they either ignore or exterminate any other civilizations they encounter. It is possible they have some feeling of moral superiority and feel that they should not interfere with others in any way (this by the way is a very alien out look compared to humans) It is very possible that aliens have a significantly different point of view from ours and they simply have no interest in anything outside their own world. It is quite possible that an alien civilization might not even have the concept of individuality that we do and they only respond to threats to their gestalt.

 

It's also quite possible that aliens are so far advanced from us that we cannot really perceive them on level high enough for us to have a clue about their existence. i have often wondered if our concept of God has it's origins in an attempt by vastly superior civilization to communicate with us in some unfathomable way.

 

 

It's quite possible that there are no aliens, we are alone.... Actually i think it's quite possible to assume that we are alone in this galaxy at least if we find no evidence of aliens once we explore our own solar system throughly. Either civilizations invariably fail or we are alone...

 

I have always been fascinated by the idea that they might already be here, if there are no aliens to impede us it would be possible for humans to pretty much occupy the entire galaxy in a few million years (actually I've seen numbers as low as 250,000 years) with technology only a little higher than our own, slow boats to the stars would allow this and such people used to living inside artificial habitats would loose interest in planets preferring their own artificial habitats. Using the materials around stars like Kuiper belt objects to build their habitats, moving from star to star as they slowly using these materials to build their numbers. Such a civilization needn't be vastly superior to us technologically, all they would really need is the desire to do it... that leads us to the idea they might be superior to us simply by being closer to being of one mind, unlike our need to control every one who thinks differently they could actually feel that new or different parts of their society deserve a chance to go their own way and artificial habitats and the slow boat method would be the beast way to allow that. in other words if you really cannot get along with the neighbors help them get their own place so they are less annoying.

 

If you apply Darwinian methods to the idea of civilization then the ones who spread out and allow different cultures to thrive would seem to be the most likely way a civilization would thrive, civilizations who need to control every one within some narrow confines of behavior (much like us) would be more likely to destroy themselves in some way, warfare would seem to the most likely way.

 

Personally i feel very strongly that the slow boat colonization of the galaxy is the most likely way, unless we are totally mistaken about the laws of nature and "Star Trek" type civilizations abound in the galaxy and they simply ignore primitives like us through some sort of agreement. If the slow boat colonization of the galaxy is true and we are not alone then they almost certainly are either here in our solar system or have been at some point. it's difficult to conceive that we are the first or that no civilization has existed for more than a few thousand years. So it is not just possible but probable that aliens are here or have been.

 

Now if they are here then the question becomes why haven't they contacted us? it's quite possible that they are more similar to social insects and have no interest in others unless there is conflict. it's also possible that until humans evolved into intelligent beings they would have had no interest in us other than simple curiosity, once we began to advance technologically i can see them having some interest, i can also see them being aware that intelligent beings would at some point advance and become at least competition for the resources in the solar system. They could react by leaving the solar system in mass once it became apparent we would be "coming out". i can see them experimenting with us in an attempt to see how much of a threat we would be. such contacts would almost certainly result in us thinking they were gods (humans seem to have an inherent desire to label anything they don't understand and can't explain as supernatural) their technology and space craft would be seen as acts of god and this would have been a great way to manipulate us if it ever became necessary.

 

Gunpowder has it's own oxidizer and guns and almost all other high explosives would work in a vacuum just as well as they do on the earth. Nuclear weapons would also work quite well in a vacuum, possibly neutron bombs might be the way to go...

[ydoaPs]

it would be possible for humans to pretty much occupy the entire galaxy in a few million years (actually I've seen numbers as low as 250,000 years) with technology only a little higher than our own, slow boats to the stars would allow this and such people used to living inside artificial habitats would loose interest in planets preferring their own artificial habitats. Using the materials around stars like Kuiper belt objects to build their habitats, moving from star to star as they slowly using these materials to build their numbers.

Planets are large sources of materials and habitats. The method you describe would use vastly more fuel than plotting a course to a new planet and colonizing there. You'd have to slow down and match speed and direction of the asteroids you would want to harvest and then you'd have to use more fuel to get back to speed and move onward to your next asteroid.

[Moontanman]

Planets are large sources of materials and habitats. The method you describe would use vastly more fuel than plotting a course to a new planet and colonizing there. You'd have to slow down and match speed and direction of the asteroids you would want to harvest and then you'd have to use more fuel to get back to speed and move onward to your next asteroid.

 

 

Since the "asteroids" are the source of both fuel, construction materials and environmental chemicals. leaving a planet would take vastly more fuel than simply maneuvering from one asteroid to another. Planets are just deep gravity wells they contain nothing that asteroids do not and are much harder to come and go from...

[ydoaPs]

Since the "asteroids" are the source of both fuel, construction materials and environmental chemicals. leaving a planet would take vastly more fuel than simply maneuvering from one asteroid to another. Planets are just deep gravity wells they contain nothing that asteroids do not and are much harder to come and go from...

Who said anything about going from a planet. Sure you could, but it wouldn't be necessary for a long time. Also, you get vastly more materials and fuel from planets than from asteroids. Launching once or twice vice slowing down, maintaining a course identical to the path of the asteroid, and then returning to cruising speed thousands of times. I'm pretty sure the planet way is much more benefit for much less cost. Feel free to do the calculations, though.

[Mr Skeptic]

Odds are, a species that lives mostly in space would become adapted to zero g. Even with artificial gravity available, eventually they might go with less and less until they prefer zero g. Then planets would be uncomfortably massive. Similarly, ships designed for space travel might not survive Earth's gravity or might not be able to escape from it. Eg the ships powered by a fusion reactor would probably need to be built in space. So there could be plenty of reason for space-faring aliens to avoid planets, even if they do have so much more minerals.

[Moontanman]

Who said anything about going from a planet. Sure you could, but it wouldn't be necessary for a long time. Also, you get vastly more materials and fuel from planets than from asteroids. Launching once or twice vice slowing down, maintaining a course identical to the path of the asteroid, and then returning to cruising speed thousands of times. I'm pretty sure the planet way is much more benefit for much less cost. Feel free to do the calculations, though.

 

 

Cruising speed? A small group of asteroids similar to the Trojan asteroids of Jupiter would yield enough materials to make hundreds if not thousands of habitats, all of them exactly the way you want them, planets are iffy from the beginning, a life bearing planet has "life" life that you may or may not be able to live with, something as simple allergens from plant life could make a planet completely uninhabitable, trace elements could make living on a planet impossible. once you make it to the star you can use very slow low energy orbits to go anywhere you want. planets are only useful if you don't plan to go anywhere else and if you know they are inhabitable before hand. simply using the materials already freely available around a star makes nearly every star useful, if you rely on planets very few stars will have earth like planets and only a few, if any, of them will be usable.

[ydoaPs]

Odds are, a species that lives mostly in space would become adapted to zero g.

Not necessarily. Surely many space faring civilizations would have the technology to have a constant acceleration near that of the gravitational acceleration their species evolved with. Especially since even at 1g, relativistic speeds are reached well under a year.

 

 

Even with artificial gravity available, eventually they might go with less and less until they prefer zero g. Then planets would be uncomfortably massive.

If said civilizations evolved in a gravity well, it's likely that they've become dependent upon gravity biologically. For example, our species has several issues with sustained zero g.

 

For such a species to ween itself off of gravity, it would need actual evolution.

 

 

Similarly, ships designed for space travel might not survive Earth's gravity or might not be able to escape from it.

Who said the target planet would be Earth size? What if the species evolved on a smaller planet like Mars or a moon like Luna and prefers lower gravity.

 

Eg the ships powered by a fusion reactor would probably need to be built in space. So there could be plenty of reason for space-faring aliens to avoid planets, even if they do have so much more minerals.

And an elevator couldn't be rigged from orbit? Lower down habitats etc and have a shipyard anchoring the elevator in orbit. That also lessens your issue with the fuel requirements of a planetary launch.

 

Also, you're ignoring the fact that the civilization may want to stay a while.

 

 

Cruising speed? A small group of asteroids similar to the Trojan asteroids of Jupiter would yield enough materials to make hundreds if not thousands of habitats, all of them exactly the way you want them,

And they'd require loads of course adjustments. Not to mention the near constant course correcting during the actual mining process.

 

planets are iffy from the beginning

They're no more iffy than using up all your fuel pulling up to asteroids that may or may not have fuel components.

 

, a life bearing planet has "life" life that you may or may not be able to live with, something as simple allergens from plant life could make a planet completely uninhabitable

Why assume a target of a life-bearing world? Also, modular design of the space craft combined with the elevator idea above is an easy fix to your contaminant idea.