Education

[Duelix]

Would you consider online schooling better or worse than traditional schooling? I have no idea on the issue. I want to hear arguments.

[Marat]

Are you asking about primary school, high school, or university education? Universities began around 1100 A.D. because prior to the inevention of movable type, books were prohibitively expensive, so it made economic sense to have people desirous of learning gather together where they could all listen as books were read aloud and then discussed. Ever since Gutenberg's time, however, this reason for universities has been missing, and now with the new technology of the internet, perhaps universities should evolve once again to keep up with this technological advance, getting rid of the expensive buildings and just becoming 'virtual' institutions with a budget focused on professors rather than dorms and lecture halls.

[Mr Skeptic]

Online schooling is only for those with enough self-discipline to study. In theory it could rival all but the very best schooling, at least in subjects that don't require much interaction with teachers. Of course, some versions of online schooling also have online real teachers, while some don't.

[Marat]

In-person schooling really wastes a huge amount of time, if you count all the time lost and energy expended in moving into and out of dorms, dealing with odd roommates, resisting party invitations, walking back and forth to classes, looking for the right offices, etc. In theory, on-line education could dispense with that and save at least a few hours a day of logistics time. But the downside is that you have to have the self-discipline and motivation to make your education seem real to you, and you lack the inspiration of fellow students and professors physically present around you to encourage you to think. Just reflect on how well you have learned material studied in a university class compared to how well you have learned it by reading out of a textbook, and you see the problem with on-line education. However, for many people with other commitments it will open up the possibility of education where it would otherwise have been impossible.

 

Unfortunately, most on-line schools up to now have not been very good, just diploma mills trying to make money rather than serious institutions of higher learning. The only exception is the University of London, which has been offering correspondence degrees since the 19th century. They give their correspondence students the same exams in the same format as the internal students take, and they hold them to the same standards. However, as far as I know, they have never become a truly on-line program.

[Tirym]

I am STRUGGLING to find some serious online schooling... even if it's not schooling: it would be enough for me to have myself tested. ( I can study all alone )

Sadly the University of London's distant learning courses are few and mostly devoid of strictly scientific subjects ( math being the only option ) and, as Marat said,

there are lots of "diploma mills" out there and I'm not sure how to verify their credibility / quality.

 

I wonder if there is any pure-testing facilities... like those for languages ( british council, Goethe Institut etc. ).

[ydoaPs]

Most serious degrees require at least a few credits of lab courses.

[lemur]

I find online information exchange more efficient than physical-presence. It also makes discussants immediately express themselves in text, which is somewhat writing practice, depending on what kind of writing they want/need to practice. Of course, some students may get something out of face-to-face contact with teachers and/or other students. Also, for students who tend to think of education as something superfluous in a world defined and dominated by economic structuring, online education may increase their sense of the world being dominated by corporatism and other business activities. Ultimately, I think there should be ways of integrating online education with students' everyday practical activities, such as their work. This would encourage students to take a view of knowledge as something that can/should be applied in their work and other everyday life situations.

[Guest Vidya Mittal]

I am STRUGGLING to find some serious online schooling... even if it's not schooling: it would be enough for me to have myself tested. ( I can study all alone )

Sadly the University of London's distant learning courses are few and mostly devoid of strictly scientific subjects ( math being the only option ) and, as Marat said,

there are lots of "diploma mills" out there and I'm not sure how to verify their credibility / quality.

 

I wonder if there is any pure-testing facilities... like those for languages ( british council, Goethe Institut etc. ).

 

The better option for open schooling is through Open University. Out of number of open university mushrooming, it became hard to find the authenticity. I am doing undergraduate course from The Global Open University, Nagaland, It is offering diploma in various courses. These are short termed courses, totally online even you can study ,give exam at the comfort of your home. For more information visit http://tgouwp.edu

[zapatos]

A lot also depends on the type of student. I believe almost any student going to college right out of high school would be better off moving away from home to attend a traditional school. Much of what you learn does not come from the courses you take.

[lemur]

A lot also depends on the type of student. I believe almost any student going to college right out of high school would be better off moving away from home to attend a traditional school. Much of what you learn does not come from the courses you take.

But why couldn't such a student move away from home to someplace where they really wanted to live/work and then pursue education online? Online schooling could open up a lot of possibilities for combining life-experiences that could not be combined if physical presence was required for all aspects of a person's life. For example, suppose someone wanted to do humanitarian work somewhere in a developing economy but pursue academic study in a field not offered in that area. Likewise, someone might want to live someplace to gain practical experience with a new language while still being able to pursue academic studies in a more familiar language. Another benefit is that with online classes, the instructor is also able to migrate around at will, which could mean that your instructor could be touring various facilities and including info about them in class-discussions. Imagine you were taking a class in water-treatment and your instructor would tell about highlights from various water-treatment facilities she was touring.

 

Of course, the risk is that both students and instructors will take advantage of online classes to shirk responsibilities and devote less attention to learning-interactions, but if they didn't it could also enhance these interactions in many ways, I think.

[zapatos]

But why couldn't such a student move away from home to someplace where they really wanted to live/work and then pursue education online? Online schooling could open up a lot of possibilities for combining life-experiences that could not be combined if physical presence was required for all aspects of a person's life.

I completely agree with the benefits you describe. The examples you give however sound to me like they would be more applicable to someone who is more mature than your typical 18 year old, which is what I was suggesting when I described them as someone going to college right out of high school.

 

By going away to college as an 18 year old, you are often experiencing your first independence (without really losing the support your parents provide), and learning to pay bills, manage your time by yourself, and be responsible for all the many things that will turn you into a mature adult. And you get to do it with a whole group of people your age who are sharing those same experiences with you. Oh, and you get an academic education too.

 

I think someone with more life skills and maturity would be more capable of, and benefit the most from, being able to separate their education from their life experiences as you described.

[lemur]

I completely agree with the benefits you describe. The examples you give however sound to me like they would be more applicable to someone who is more mature than your typical 18 year old, which is what I was suggesting when I described them as someone going to college right out of high school.

 

By going away to college as an 18 year old, you are often experiencing your first independence (without really losing the support your parents provide), and learning to pay bills, manage your time by yourself, and be responsible for all the many things that will turn you into a mature adult. And you get to do it with a whole group of people your age who are sharing those same experiences with you. Oh, and you get an academic education too.

 

I think someone with more life skills and maturity would be more capable of, and benefit the most from, being able to separate their education from their life experiences as you described.

You don't think young adults can benefit from interactions with more experienced adults? I tend to think more diversity is always better, although that's really too general to possibly be universally valid. Big universities that concentrate young adults and supply them with lots of institutionalized interactions may protect them and give them more of an opportunity to compare experiences with others in a similar situation, but it also prevents them from broadening their horizons somewhat too, don't you think?

[zapatos]

You don't think young adults can benefit from interactions with more experienced adults? I tend to think more diversity is always better, although that's really too general to possibly be universally valid. Big universities that concentrate young adults and supply them with lots of institutionalized interactions may protect them and give them more of an opportunity to compare experiences with others in a similar situation, but it also prevents them from broadening their horizons somewhat too, don't you think?

I've always felt that the transitions from elementary school, to high school, to college, to the start of your career were big steps, but ones that the previous step had prepared you for. By going away to college you get to learn in an environment where you are competing with your equals. While more experienced adults may be good for you I don't really believe that most of your co-workers are going to be thinking of what is best for you. People tend to interact most with peers, and if I'm a relatively immature 18 year old, I don't know that those older and more experienced adults will really be looking out for me.

 

If I move from high school to college to work, I think I'll be better prepared on the job than if I move from high school to work, while pursuing my education independently. It's not that it can't be done; it's done all the time. I just feel the extra step for traditional education makes for smoother transitions.

 

As far as limiting the broadending of their horizons, I'd agree to a point. College will certainly broaden your horizons to some extent, but it only delays, not eliminates, the bigger step you're talking about.

[lemur]

I've always felt that the transitions from elementary school, to high school, to college, to the start of your career were big steps, but ones that the previous step had prepared you for. By going away to college you get to learn in an environment where you are competing with your equals. While more experienced adults may be good for you I don't really believe that most of your co-workers are going to be thinking of what is best for you. People tend to interact most with peers, and if I'm a relatively immature 18 year old, I don't know that those older and more experienced adults will really be looking out for me.

 

If I move from high school to college to work, I think I'll be better prepared on the job than if I move from high school to work, while pursuing my education independently. It's not that it can't be done; it's done all the time. I just feel the extra step for traditional education makes for smoother transitions.

 

As far as limiting the broadending of their horizons, I'd agree to a point. College will certainly broaden your horizons to some extent, but it only delays, not eliminates, the bigger step you're talking about.

I think our respective positions represent an essential philosophical difference in the values of socially structuring people's lives. Structural education, like structural economics, and other forms of organizing people into relatively artificial social situations bothers me some. There's something eerie about a school or other situation where people are organized according to cohorts segregated on multiple levels according to age, ability-level, interest, etc. I don't think this is really separate from the radical classification of people into different economic sectors such that it becomes increasingly unimaginable for a person classified into one cohort or institutional situation to imagine working or interacting with people in another. Do you want a society solidly divided into white collar, blue collar, and service personnel and no fluidity or exchange of people or functions between the separate sectors of human life?

 

I had the idea that segregation got really unpopular during the civil rights period, anti-apartheid politics, and the struggle to remove the berlin wall and the iron curtain, but maybe that was just for certain instances of segregation and people are still interested in maintaining and expanding others. Obviously there are going to be a slew of reasons to sort and organize people in various ways, since this is basically what humans do with just about everything for one reason or another. It's just that there has also been this other philosophy developed where people see the goal of society to increase human freedom instead of increasing the power to sort and control them within institutionalized matrices. I don't know if you think of yourself as being squarely on the side of sorting, structure, and control but I tend to find that most people who are do not really see any value in people being able to interact with anyone freely without institutional guidance toward some and away from others.

 

edit: I just posted this but I thought I should mention that there is one reason, imo, that relative segregation makes sense and that has to do with language and other interactions where multiple individuals practicing common culture is needed for interaction. Still, the question is whether people should segregate themselves 24/7/365 into common language situation or companies/divisions that do the same kind of work or other culture. You would think people would be able to congregate for various common culturalities and divide their time between different ones. Humans tend to get stressed and seek security from that stress through avoidance of all sorts of situations, so we get used to surrounding ourselves with a single culture/language/lifestyle if we can get away with it, but I don't think it's ultimately good for anyone to take it so far. Still, it is important for people to come together on a regular temporary basis to practice various common culturalities.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2010 by lemur

[zapatos]

I think our respective positions represent an essential philosophical difference in the values of socially structuring people's lives. Structural education, like structural economics, and other forms of organizing people into relatively artificial social situations bothers me some. There's something eerie about a school or other situation where people are organized according to cohorts segregated on multiple levels according to age, ability-level, interest, etc.

I don't find that organizing people into structured education where people of varied backgrounds are all sharing the common goal of higher education, is all that different than organizing people into structured work where people of varied backgrounds are all sharing the common goal of marketing a product.

 

In both cases you have people of varied backgrounds and intelligence, organized under an umbrella organization, and further broken down into specialties and sub-specialties based on thing such as abilities and interests. You also find sponsored social events in both types of institutions.

 

The two seem very similar to me except maybe at the level of complexity.

[lemur]

I don't find that organizing people into structured education where people of varied backgrounds are all sharing the common goal of higher education, is all that different than organizing people into structured work where people of varied backgrounds are all sharing the common goal of marketing a product.

It's not. The question is whether people should have awareness and choice to organize/structure their educational and economic activities in other ways.

 

In both cases you have people of varied backgrounds and intelligence, organized under an umbrella organization, and further broken down into specialties and sub-specialties based on thing such as abilities and interests. You also find sponsored social events in both types of institutions.

And individuals tend to orient toward institutional structuring in a relatively passive way. I.e. they come to view themselves as subsidiaries of organizations instead of agents organizing their own life activities and interactions.

 

 

[rktpro]

Would you consider online schooling better or worse than traditional schooling? I have no idea on the issue. I want to hear arguments.

 

Online schooling is no good to a mere beginner. For example, you can't teach a child alphabets by jest making him sit in front of a monitor and listen and follow what is said. Online Schooling doesn't restrict anyone to study. Schools, on the other hand forces one to come. You would study better with mates and in groups than studying at your own with Facebook opened in other tab.

[lemur]

Online schooling is no good to a mere beginner. For example, you can't teach a child alphabets by jest making him sit in front of a monitor and listen and follow what is said. Online Schooling doesn't restrict anyone to study. Schools, on the other hand forces one to come. You would study better with mates and in groups than studying at your own with Facebook opened in other tab.

If you were really interested in the topic and you weren't confused by the webpage, I think online learning would be many many times more interesting than facebook.

[rktpro]

If you were really interested in the topic and you weren't confused by the webpage, I think online learning would be many many times more interesting than facebook.

 

I do agree. But, that requires deep interest. Interest can be easily created by creating situations of competitions. Like done in school.

[lemur]

I do agree. But, that requires deep interest. Interest can be easily created by creating situations of competitions. Like done in school.

Yes, that's what school is good for, imo: trapping people in a situation where they HAVE to learn because they wouldn't want to otherwise. Also the use of reward-systems, grades, competitions, etc. The problem with it is Marx's classical criticism of industrial capitalism alienating workers from their labor. I.e. instead of being interested in learning for its own sake, people come to see it as a (boring) means to an end. It takes the joy out of life (until the bell rings or it's vacation time of course).

[rktpro]

Yes, that's what school is good for, imo: trapping people in a situation where they HAVE to learn because they wouldn't want to otherwise. Also the use of reward-systems, grades, competitions, etc. The problem with it is Marx's classical criticism of industrial capitalism alienating workers from their labor. I.e. instead of being interested in learning for its own sake, people come to see it as a (boring) means to an end. It takes the joy out of life (until the bell rings or it's vacation time of course).

 

But, you have to admit that the building block is school. Later you can do whatever you want, after learning the basics.

[lemur]

But, you have to admit that the building block is school. Later you can do whatever you want, after learning the basics.

Why would I have to admit that? I'm more interested in understanding how learning works than in uncritically re-inforcing assumptions on a dogmatic basis.

[Marat]

If you consider what education was like in its Western origins -- people who generally loved learning coming together at Plato's academy or Aristotle's lyceum, seeking to enhance their understanding by discussing problems with each other -- and contrast this with the purely instrumental education of today, it is quite depressing. "I hate studying this but without a degree I can't get into the management trainee program at McDonald's Restaurant, so I have to put up with this for the next four years unless I want to start out making hamburgers," is hardly an attitude that would have made sense to the scholars participating in the foundation of modern science at Gresham College in the 17th century. The great step backward was the arbitrary assumption at the end of the 19th century that a unversity education is necessary or useful to doing most high-paying jobs, which it is not. Actually, I would have been more suited to enter the Met Life management trainee program straight out of high school, since I was then still uneducated enough to adjust to the stupid sort of interests required for such a trade.

 

If for some reason you are strongly motivated to study science, have a genuine love of learning, but cannot leave your home area to attend university, then a good option might be a distance education from the University of Waterloo. Waterloo is well-respected in Canada as a technical, computer-oriented school with a distance learning program which is now about thirty years old. You can earn a general science B.A., with real courses at an advanced level in chemistry, physics, biology, etc., all taken by distance learning and examined by arrangement with schools near where you live.

[Adams Baker]

Most professional jobs today require some form of a specialized or accredited degree and a traditional classroom setting from a reputable institution is the generally accepted form of education. Since the advent of the Internet and its widespread use the concept of online schools as an accepted method is gaining prominence in the professional world. More jobs and more people are requiring a strong educational background for career advancement and online schools are a variety option due to its cost-effective, convenience and flexibility. As with most progressive forms of education, online schools were initially regarded as inferior due to a lack of face-to-face interaction amongst peers and student teachers. On the other hand, the sanctity of traditional schools perseveres due to the plethora of programs they offer that come affiliated with distinguished faculties. From here http://www.thedegreeexperts.com you may get more information on online schooling and traditional schooling.