Help! I've Taken the 'Date Rape' Drug!

[Marat]

I was living in England when the world-wide hysteria over the 'date rape' drug GBH first seized hold of public consciousness. Officials in the British government were alarmed that their laws did not permit them at the time to prohibit the manufacturing, sale, distribution, and use of the drug, so being naughty, I thought I would buy some and try it.

 

I found it really salty -- so salty in fact that I couldn't understand how anyone could possibly slip it into someone's drink without the person noticing it, unless it were tomato juice already spiced with Worcestershire Sauce. I also found that while it made me slightly sleepy, it took about an hour, even at the highest dose, for the drug to make me even seriously want to go to sleep. It was certainly much less powerful as a soporific than Sominex or anything else freely available over-the-counter in the sleep medication section of any pharmacy around the world. So if GBH had to be prohibited, then why not Sominex?

 

The whole incident just illustrates once again the hysterical response of bourgeois society to anything which can be related to sexual liberty, even a mild sedative like GBH.

[StringJunky]

I was living in England when the world-wide hysteria over the 'date rape' drug GBH first seized hold of public consciousness. Officials in the British government were alarmed that their laws did not permit them at the time to prohibit the manufacturing, sale, distribution, and use of the drug, so being naughty, I thought I would buy some and try it.

 

I found it really salty -- so salty in fact that I couldn't understand how anyone could possibly slip it into someone's drink without the person noticing it, unless it were tomato juice already spiced with Worcestershire Sauce. I also found that while it made me slightly sleepy, it took about an hour, even at the highest dose, for the drug to make me even seriously want to go to sleep. It was certainly much less powerful as a soporific than Sominex or anything else freely available over-the-counter in the sleep medication section of any pharmacy around the world. So if GBH had to be prohibited, then why not Sominex?

 

The whole incident just illustrates once again the hysterical response of bourgeois society to anything which can be related to sexual liberty, even a mild sedative like GBH.

 

To replicate the common real world situation you need to take it whilst drunk and THEN make a judgement. I don't know personally but maybe GBH amplifies the alcohol or vice versa and it is this combination that creates a powerful sedative effect and not on its own. This is not an encouragement for you to try it but something you have obviously not considered in your final analysis. Psychoactive drugs are very person-specific as to how it affects them and you shouldn't make a sweeping general statement like you have from a single data point....it's unscientific and socially irresponsible.

[Mr Skeptic]

Well, I'd think that you have to take some of it while drunk, then read a passage and do a reading comprehension test, or some sort of other memory test.

 

According to wiki, GBH is hardly ever used as a date rape drug anyways.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

IIRC I read a study suggesting that the number of medically verified date rape druggings in the US was tiny -- maybe five. The rest of cases tend to be from excessive alcohol consumption.

 

edit: Daily Mail article on the subject:

 

http://www.dailymail...king-blame.html

 

I'll try to find better sources soon.

 

edit: another article, from ScienceDaily, about a separate study:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071020113144.htm

 

And The Telegraph:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6440589/Date-rape-drink-spiking-an-urban-legend.html

[Marat]

Andrea Dworkin said that in 1999 she was raped by the date rape drug, though somehow the great feminist rape-hunter forgot that it was important not to take a shower to wash away all evidence of the deed, and that it was also important to report the incident to the police, or to name either of the alleged perpetrators.

 

If we do perform an experiment in which both GBH and alcohol are consumed together, then how do we know which drug had the soporific effect, or how much can be attributed to either? Alcohol always used to have the reputation of being the seducer's trick of last resort, so combining it with GBH would seem to mask the latter's effects.

[tomgwyther]

Speaking from experience, I'd exercise caution in attempting such an experiment.

I myself have fallen victim to a 'spiked' drink. I drank my female friend's beer. my total alcohol consumption was just two pints of lager.

I don't remember anything past getting in the car (Luckily she drove home) I had to be rolled over to stop from choking on my own vomit. It could have been much worse; I was virtually unconsious through out the whole ordeal

Also, my friend - Michelle - had a drink spiked, possibly with Rohipnol, we're not sure. After about an hour in the bar, she collapsed and was sick and foaming at the mouth. we called the emergency services who sent an ambulance. she was loaded in. on the way to the hospital, her heart stopped and she had to be resuscitated, she was clinically dead for about a minute.

There are a few other cases which spring to mind, I was a bar manger for about 9 years so I witnessed this sort of thing a lot.

Those two are the ones which i remember the most.

You may wish to have a paramedic on hand if you're attempting to mix alcohol with so-called date rape drugs.

 

p.s. she made a full recovery and has just had twin boys.

Edited September 27, 2010 by tomgwyther

[lemur]

The whole incident just illustrates once again the hysterical response of bourgeois society to anything which can be related to sexual liberty, even a mild sedative like GBH.

 

If there was any sexual liberation coming from this drug, wouldn't users be coming forth to claim that they were not raped/manipulated into sex but that they did it completely voluntarily? If anything, sexual repression is responsible for the use of the drug in the first place, not its banning.

[Marat]

I said, "anything which CAN be related to sexual liberty," since I don't think that GBH has anything more to do with sexuality than Sominex does. It is just that in a society which is disproportionately terrified of the dangers of sex, everything new can easily be interpreted as a sexual danger, and then the attendant hysteria emerges. In Saudi Arabia, for example, women are forbidden to drive cars because cars are regarded as 'brothels on wheels' since they provide a convenient venue for illicit sexual liasons. That they can also be used to carry food home from the grocery store and that this benefit may outweigh any moral dangers somehow doesn't occur to anyone there.

[insane_alien]

I said, "anything which CAN be related to sexual liberty," since I don't think that GBH has anything more to do with sexuality than Sominex does. It is just that in a society which is disproportionately terrified of the dangers of sex, everything new can easily be interpreted as a sexual danger, and then the attendant hysteria emerges. In Saudi Arabia, for example, women are forbidden to drive cars because cars are regarded as 'brothels on wheels' since they provide a convenient venue for illicit sexual liasons. That they can also be used to carry food home from the grocery store and that this benefit may outweigh any moral dangers somehow doesn't occur to anyone there.

 

i hope you realise there is a massive difference between a new fetish and unknowingly drugging someone and then having sex with them while they are semi-concious.

 

the latter is rape by the way in case you couldn't figure it out and it is a problem. hell, even i've had a spiked drink in a club(thankfully my friends realised that i was not enough of a lightweight to be acting like i was after only 1 drink and took me home). its more common than you'd think.

 

so no, this is not some new sexuality, this is rape with chemical restraints instead of physical restraints.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

This puts another question in my mind.

 

If so many people report experiences with spiked drinks, why have researchers had such a hard time finding evidence of it? For example, The Telegraph article I link above shows that of 97 people admitted to hospitals because of alleged drink-spiking, not a single one had any evidence of such drugs in their bloodstream.

 

What makes people think they've had spiked drinks when they haven't -- or what makes the drugs not show up in tests?

[insane_alien]

dunno, but i went from sober to unable to stand after a single vodka and coke. there must have been something up with it(i never went to hospital about it as i was fine when i came out of it the next day.

[lemur]

I said, "anything which CAN be related to sexual liberty," since I don't think that GBH has anything more to do with sexuality than Sominex does. It is just that in a society which is disproportionately terrified of the dangers of sex, everything new can easily be interpreted as a sexual danger, and then the attendant hysteria emerges. In Saudi Arabia, for example, women are forbidden to drive cars because cars are regarded as 'brothels on wheels' since they provide a convenient venue for illicit sexual liasons. That they can also be used to carry food home from the grocery store and that this benefit may outweigh any moral dangers somehow doesn't occur to anyone there.

 

For many people, cars ARE brothels on wheels! My point about the sexual repression was that if people were liberated enough sexually to take responsibility for their desires and activities, they would just negotiate sex sober. There would be no need for the whole song and dance of going out to a club, dinner, movie, having drinks, etc. There would be a type of red-light district for casual sex where no money would change hands. People would just go there when they were in the mood and negotiate what they want and how and do it right out in the open. Without cultural repression, having sex in this way would be neither particularly exciting, illicit, illegal, or risque'. It's all the repression and control surrounding sex that causes people to be selective about who, how, what, where, when, etc. including the need to dress, act, look, and smell special for the occasion. All this frill surrounding sex, as well as the taboos and regulations, causes sex to make people very nervous. They are nervous to ask and nervous to say yes when they want it. Then when someone shows up with a date rape drug, it becomes popular because the hurdle of explicit consent can be short-circuited.

 

I think you should do more research into the psychological consequences for people who use this drug, either as assailants or victims. I have, for example, heard about someone who woke up the next day after a fraternity party not being able to remember what happened but being aware from the state of her body that she had had sex. What do you think would go through your mind if that happened to you? Would you see a doctor to be tested for STDs? Would you wonder every time you saw a guy from that fraternity whether it was him or whether he knew about it? Or would you just brush it off as par for the course? As "paying your dues?"

 

What about guys who participate in such sexual encounters because their buddies convince them that everyone does it and it's no big deal? What happens when those guys later start to give serious consideration to the illegality and moral/ethical gravity of rape? What happens when those guys become fathers with daughters and they have to worry about someone doing that to his daughter knowing that he did it to women when he was her age?

[divagreen]

This puts another question in my mind.

 

If so many people report experiences with spiked drinks, why have researchers had such a hard time finding evidence of it? For example, The Telegraph article I link above shows that of 97 people admitted to hospitals because of alleged drink-spiking, not a single one had any evidence of such drugs in their bloodstream.

 

What makes people think they've had spiked drinks when they haven't -- or what makes the drugs not show up in tests?

 

I think the reason it does not always show up in tests is because it has something to do with the half-life of the drug in question (pharmacology was an awfully long time ago). I think that the drug will only test positive for a certain amount of time, mostly when the victim is unconscious, hence, it's effectiveness and lack of detection.

 

I am sure someone who has more knowledge about chemistry and/or pharmacology can elaborate.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

That's quite possible. Perhaps someone should perform a study in which attractive women go to pubs, order some drinks, and stash away samples of the drinks in vials before drinking, to detect if they've been spiked. Do it for long enough and you might get some hits.

[Mr Skeptic]

That's quite possible. Perhaps someone should perform a study in which attractive women go to pubs, order some drinks, and stash away samples of the drinks in vials before drinking, to detect if they've been spiked. Do it for long enough and you might get some hits.

 

Good idea, but of course they also have to give people opportunity to spike it since the bartender won't. Eg ask people to buy or fetch her a drink, or go to the bathroom. Best combined with some surveillance so we can put some bastards behind bars too.

[Moontanman]

The sleeping pill "Ambien" can be similar in it's effects when combined with alcohol. it makes you susceptible to suggestion and the next day you have no memory of what you did. I have experienced this, it's really weird, i try to make sure i do not take ambien and drink and get on the computer. i have lost friends this way. My wife takes ambien and drinks wine, when she wakes up in the morning she has no memory of love making (or anything else) what so ever the next morning...

[divagreen]

That's quite possible. Perhaps someone should perform a study in which attractive women go to pubs, order some drinks, and stash away samples of the drinks in vials before drinking, to detect if they've been spiked. Do it for long enough and you might get some hits.

 

I think that you are providing a gender bias research base by leaving out the attractive men.

 

I also think that as long as vials are being collected, one might as well test for hygiene to find out whether or not the bartenders are actually cleaning the glassware rather than just dunking them in water like it looks like they are doing.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I think that you are providing a gender bias research base by leaving out the attractive men.

 

I also think that as long as vials are being collected, one might as well test for hygiene to find out whether or not the bartenders are actually cleaning the glassware rather than just dunking them in water like it looks like they are doing.

 

Or see if they just give you cheaper beer when you're too drunk to tell the difference.

[Moontanman]

I think that you are providing a gender bias research base by leaving out the attractive men.

 

I also think that as long as vials are being collected, one might as well test for hygiene to find out whether or not the bartenders are actually cleaning the glassware rather than just dunking them in water like it looks like they are doing.

 

 

I'm not sure that a man who is half out of it would be much good for a "date" but i see no reason to assume all the people who are being drugged are women but can a woman force sex on a half passed out man?

 

I am quite sure that in some cases cheap tequila is being substituted for good tequila... assuming of course there is such a thing as good tequila

[Marat]

I am sure people have been spiking drinks with one substance or another for centuries in order to make them unconscious and gain some advantage over them, whether it was robbery, kidnapping, or illegal sexual contact. But since any number of substances may accomplish that, from alcohol alone to alcohol mixed with a range of ordinary, over-the-counter sleep aids, there was no need for the world-wide outburst of hysteria and the massive response of the criminal law to the introduction of just one more substance which could help in that age-old scheming. I think the over-reaction was more a matter of the public's background fear and hatred of sexuality being played upon by the media and by public authorities, who are always eager to seize on any excuse to gain more control through intrusive laws and enhanced police powers.

 

I agree with much of what Lemur said, which is that society would be a much more sane and relaxed place if sexuality had never been turned into something sacred, which in turn makes it something relatively scarce, which then leads to all sorts of social stress and criminal acts to obtain it. If having sex with someone had been constituted by our cultural history as something no more significant than having a conversation with someone, then a variety of sexual partners would be available as readily as a variety of conversational partners are now, with the result that no one would ever think of using violence to force anyone into sex. After all, has anyone in an alley at night ever forced you at gunpoint to discuss the day's politics with him?

[lemur]

If having sex with someone had been constituted by our cultural history as something no more significant than having a conversation with someone, then a variety of sexual partners would be available as readily as a variety of conversational partners are now, with the result that no one would ever think of using violence to force anyone into sex. After all, has anyone in an alley at night ever forced you at gunpoint to discuss the day's politics with him?

 

Maybe, but conversation doesn't involve risk of pregnancy or STD. I suppose it could put you at more risk to converse with someone who has a cough or flu though, but not as much as having sex with someone with an STD.

[Marat]

But significantly, even in societies where the possibility of the sexual transmission of disease was not understood, sex was still regarded as something sacred and was thus hedged in with elaborate rituals to ensure that it would only become accessible after all the proper rites were complied with. In the ancient world, before Columbus' crew returned with syphilis acquired from the New World, there were probably no truly serious sexually-transmitted diseases other than yaws and other ordinarily communicable diseases such as the flu. In Islamic culture there is a prohibition against sex with people suffering from certain types of leprosy, though that disease is normally minimally communicable.

 

The fear of unwanted pregancy as a reason for limiting sex only comes into existence after access to sex has already been limited, since people, like their nearest simian relatives, are naturally constantly promiscuously sexual. Thus the bushmen of the Kalahari region of Southwest Africa never understood the connection between sexual intercourse and pregnancy, since everyone was always having sex with everyone else, so partnership was insufficiently stable for the causal link to be discerned.

[Mr Skeptic]

Sex is restricted in the rest of the animal kingdom too.

[Marat]

Sex is restricted in the rest of the animal kingdom, but only insofar as females are not always in heat. Since this is not the case with humans, from the perspective of nature there would be no reason to restrict mating.

[insane_alien]

except mating requires consent from both parties. the fact that people are drugged means informed consent cannot be given.