Habla Español?

[rigney]

I had this written, when the thread was locked, seems irrelevant now but will post for what it's worth....

 

 

rigney; Overall US Legal Immigration Policy has changed many times but until 2003 or so, speaking, writing or understanding English was not an issue or a requirement. It was an implied requirement for a successful transition (melding) into the society.

 

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aanewtest.htm

 

Factually and to your point however, people wishing to come here for the most to participate in the affairs of Society and Government, would learn English and encouraged to do so for a prime reason of being successful to the purpose of their coming here in the first place, learning the language, culture and traditions of their chosen residence. It has obviously worked and no doubt should be continued and today for citizenship, applicants are REQUIRED to have an understanding of the English Language.

 

How it has got to the current paradox, IMO falls under two major issues, political and economical and under the disguise of being politically correct. Whether by State action or at the Federal level and noting Illegal Immigration...

 

1- Political; At least since 1965, possibly before all US political Parties have fought over minority groups and there vote at the voting booth. Since it's pretty much up to States/Controlling Party, to control registration and voter eligibility, local laws and enforcement of those laws has been directed at gaining those votes.

 

2- Economical and probably the most important; Whether a small business, the largest manufacturer selling a product, or any local, State Government wishing to gain revenue, the objective being the individual/family and their potential participation.

 

 

While I agree, if exceptions are being made to accommodate one language over another seems unfair, in any area where a large segment of the society is first generation and speaks usually two languages, you'll find much the same, in that local area. As for those that speak Spanish and not illegal, I'd bet the farm they prefer hearing English and are very much aware, to get anyplace in this Country or any Country, it's best done understanding the native language.

 

As to the replies; It should be the Governments obligation to promote the use of English in the US and for the most part I think they are, it's a simple matter of assimilation and if you don't mind a courtesy due the Nation, THEY CHOSE. I have no idea how bigotry got thrown into this discussion, melding or to encourage being part of that choice, if anything is the opposite of bigotry.

 

Tripo; Your mother (10yo) and assuming her parents moving from Panama to the States and claiming to have trouble mastering English, seems a little dramatic. I could and do understand the parents (your grandparents) as a good share of original immigrants do have problems, children in my experience with Latino's have little to no problems. I have no idea what being dirt poor has to do with learning something, but I see nothing written, indicating not speaking English makes for a bad Citizen and your personal success as a second generation immigrant, speaks volumes for the millions that have come here and built what you can now enjoy...

 

I've gotta be careful Jackson. I'm very easily led into situations that I should definitely steer clear of because of my ignorance. I had no intent of getting on anyones case, especially the Scotch Lad. The thing simply got out of hand. There is no nationality in this world that I detest or hate. People? Some people, I just don't like; probably no more than they like me. I simply have a problem trying to placate a situation that our government should never have let happen in the first place. Thanks for the push, and I'm just sorry that some folks don't understand my reasoning.

Edited October 11, 2010 by rigney

[A Tripolation]

Tripo; Your mother (10yo) and assuming her parents moving from Panama to the States and claiming to have trouble mastering English, seems a little dramatic. I could and do understand the parents (your grandparents) as a good share of original immigrants do have problems, children in my experience with Latino's have little to no problems. I have no idea what being dirt poor has to do with learning something, but I see nothing written, indicating not speaking English makes for a bad Citizen and your personal success as a second generation immigrant, speaks volumes for the millions that have come here and built what you can now enjoy...

 

You're right. I'm making it up. It's easy for a child that had never been to school before to go to one that's in a completely different language, with no ESL programs at all, and learn English as if they had been born here.

 

I was being dramatic. Because I enjoy arguing with people. And trolling.

[jackson33]

And by the way, for such a die-hard American patriot, your grammar is appalling. And half of your sentences are either incomplete or suffering from verb-tense disagreements. Just thought you should know. [/Quote]

 

I'm from Kentucky. So I already know your type. You hate everything that's different. You hate Spanish because it's not the antiquated country dialect you've known all your life. You hate Mexicans because they're "taking jobs", even though they're some of the hardest workers I've ever met in my life.[/Quote]

 

Because I enjoy arguing with people. And trolling. [/Quote]

 

Well Tripo, I've really never understood just what "trolling" means and have received several different definitions, from folks. However, out of the box, this thread and directed to a person you can't possibly know, this just might fit some of those definitions, just too many assumptions. By the way, rigney's Dad was a coal miner. Would you like a description of what this meant for people in the 30-40's and the meaning of hard work, long hours or working condtions?

 

It's easy for a child that had never been to school before to go to one that's in a completely different language, with no ESL programs at all, and learn English as if they had been born here.[/Quote]

 

Actually YES, I believe it's MUCH easier for a child (opposed to an adult) to learn a language and to the best of my knowledge, no child is taught in the womb. Parents for the most part set the path for there children's education. Most all immigrants from non English speaking places, from Plymouth Rock to this day have had little trouble, yes w/o "ESL programs and all", which are relatively new. It's those kids and their parents whom did the right things, the millions and millions, I'm standing up for...

 

However this was not my point and you seemed to miss that point, using yourself as an excellent (meaning good) example. You claim to have accomplished good things, I can't confirm, but then to claim it was NOT for your mothers efforts, because of some environment, seems to be IMO somewhat disingenuous. I'd be a little more proud of HER efforts, then blaming society for your success.

 

Actually, from your posts, he seems to be correct. And you should stop trying to feel superior because you're old. Age does not necessitate wisdom. In fact, in this particular example, your age would make you more likely to fit Trip's description.[/Quote]

 

ydoaPs; As another "old person", it would be my opinion, rigney displays too much humility. However I do agree us older folks, in trying to explain the errors of our day may come off as arrogant. It's a complicated long story, but what we were taught, how we were taught/raised and learned to believe in may not be the best, but in the end these things today being done, may not be the best but statically, might be arguable.

 

I've gotta be careful Jackson. I'm very easily led into situations that I should definitely steer clear of because of my ignorance. I had no intent of getting on anyones case, especially the Scotch Lad. The thing simply got out of hand. There is no nationality in this world that I detest or hate. People? Some people, I just don't like; probably no more than they like me. I simply have a problem trying to placate a situation that our government should never have let happen in the first place. Thanks for the push, and I'm just sorry that some folks don't understand my reasoning. [/Quote]

 

rigney; I couldn't agree more, but keep in mind in many ways it was our generation that led to the problems. While we were living our lives, we voted (our society) in 40 years of a liberal Congress (1954-1994), several liberal Executives (Johnson/Carter), allowed the Federal to intervene into our State Rights, School Systems, Judicial System and in many other ways. We didn't listen to our ancestors, whom knew all to well what Freedom and the right of individualism really meant. Reagan tried, with some success and as was Kennedy to the current liberals, maybe his legacy will be that influence he had on millions of folks, that for some reason are now coming the table....

[A Tripolation]

However this was not my point and you seemed to miss that point, using yourself as an excellent (meaning good) example. You claim to have accomplished good things, I can't confirm, but then to claim it was NOT for your mothers efforts, because of some environment, seems to be IMO somewhat disingenuous. I'd be a little more proud of HER efforts, then blaming society for your success.

 

I claim to have accomplished nothing. Where anywhere did I say I was anything more than a student in college?

 

By the way, rigney's Dad was a coal miner. Would you like a description of what this meant for people in the 30-40's and the meaning of hard work, long hours or working condtions?

 

Erm, no. Without being too maudlin, my father has probably worked just as hard as any coal miner in those days. Getting two or three hours of sleep every day, working every single day including holidays, walking on a broken leg until it grew back together incorrectly because medical care was too expensive, milking 60 dairy cattle twice a day with no help, growing 11 acres of tobacco with little help, maintaining fences and other farm labor, growing corn and hay with no help, ect ect, all to pay off the debts his parents stupidly incurred.

 

So no thanks Jackson, I already understand what true hard work is. I understand how easy I have it, and how blessed I am. I don't need you to lecture me on what you believe to be truth.

 

Rigney was complaining that there were spanish options on certain phone menus. I told him to get over it, that America has become so diverse that those options make sense for a profit-driven company.

[jackson33]

I claim to have accomplished nothing. Where anywhere did I say I was anything more than a student in college?[/Quote]

 

I must have mixed you and ydoaPs (nuclear operator etc) up and then assumed you were a little older when saying "Perseverance was all she had", meaning she had passed on. IF that was correct, my condolences and at such a young age is always troubling, to me. Anyway YOU being in College, is no small accomplishment, none of the five Latino kids, I helped raise or my own two half breeds ever thought about college.

 

Erm, no. Without being too maudlin, my father has probably worked just as hard as any coal miner in those days. Getting two or three hours of sleep every day, working every single day including holidays, walking on a broken leg until it grew back together incorrectly because medical care was too expensive, milking 60 dairy cattle twice a day with no help, growing 11 acres of tobacco with little help, maintaining fences and other farm labor, growing corn and hay with no help, ect ect, all to pay off the debts his parents stupidly incurred.[/Quote]

 

Farming is always a tough business and most active in farming, especially with Cows, work every day. I've done that as well as a young hired hand. It's probably those work ethics that got you to where you are. Are you telling me you have lost both your parents???

 

So no thanks Jackson, I already understand what true hard work is. I understand how easy I have it, and how blessed I am. I don't need you to lecture me on what you believe to be truth.[/Quote]

 

Yes you are blessed, might understand hard work (that will come) and no lecture was intended.

 

Rigney was complaining that there were spanish options on certain phone menus. I told him to get over it, that America has become so diverse that those options make sense for a profit-driven company. [/Quote]

 

If your reading my post, you already know I've covered the reason you suggest (economics) and added the political angle. I'm not sure he was complaining as much as ASKING why, which has been answered. However I am not going to get involved with illegal immigration here, but in the name of political correctness, to serve to the interest of one language over the hundreds of others, does beg asking some questions.

[A Tripolation]

Are you telling me you have lost both your parents???

 

...No? When did I give the impression that I had lost either of my parents?

[jackson33]

BERLIN - Germany's attempt to create a multi-cultural society has failed completely, Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend, calling on the country's immigrants to learn German and adopt Christian values.

 

Merkel weighed in for the first time in a blistering debate sparked by a central bank board member saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants[/Quote]

 

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/10/17-2

 

rigney, hope you don't mind this slight variation to your threads intent, however it's along the line of a society adapting to immigrants, opposed to immigrants melding into the society. Too often, I hear Americans saying "how great other Countries handle some situation", but like any media, when it fails no one seems to bring it up.

 

 

Trip; Just noticed your comment...When you talk in past tense, "Perseverance was all she had" or your Dad's previous efforts (taken as past tense) for your grand folks, it raised that question. Now, I'm led to believe both your parents are around and am wondering if those mentioned grand parents, lived in the US or in Panama, ringing up all that debt. While I'm being inquisitive, any person that breaks a leg, would normally go to the emergency room of any Hospital, maybe even calling an ambulance. If you were around this would have been well after 1970 and payment not an issue. If before, were talking cents on the dollar and hospitals, since they have existed, worked out moderate payments plan or the Red Cross or some charity/Church would step and pay the bill. I'm really not liking your views of Historical America or our traditions....while it's only my opinion, it might be misleading to other young minds.

[tomgwyther]

Years ago, the native language in Kentucky was Shawnee. later, people arrived who brought their language to the area - English. a bit later some more people arrived who brought their language (Spanish) to the area. language simply changes by popular demand.

English itself is made up of other languages, (Latin, Greek, German, French, Gaelic to name a few) English wouldn't exist as a language if it weren't for immigration. You are merely experiencing the transient nature of language via an automated telephone banking system.

Remain calm; there is nothing to fear. You yourself do not speak the native language of your area, you merely speak the most popular language at a given time.

[jackson33]

Years ago, the native language in Kentucky was Shawnee. later, people arrived who brought their language to the area - English. a bit later some more people arrived who brought their language (Spanish) to the area. language simply changes by popular demand.[/Quote]

 

tomgwyther; I missed that meeting where the Shawnee, established an official language, or nullified the other tribes in the area, but before any European major exploration into the New World took place, their were hundreds of tribal languages, laws or cultures across what is NOW the United States. Here are couple links for those interested;

 

Historical Tribes by States;

http://www.native-languages.org/states.htm

 

The Kentucky link;

http://www.native-languages.org/kentucky.htm

 

Yes, the Louisiana Territory was originally a Spanish Territory, given to France for debt owed and later bought by Jefferson and yes until a necessity for a cohesive society (not popular demand) to form, many languages were in use.

 

Remain calm; there is nothing to fear. You yourself do not speak the native language of your area, you merely speak the most popular language at a given time. [/Quote]

 

The "Chicken or the egg" argument;

 

Noun: native ney-tiv

 

A person born in a particular place or country[/Quote]

 

As an American born person (20th Century), IMO, I speak my native language, but what your inferring is I don't speak the language of those that were here, before my State organized and joined that Union of States. Which is defined...

 

Noun: Native American

 

Any member of the peoples living in North or South America before the Europeans arrived[/Quote]

 

Not to further confuse you, the Native Language of person living in the US, speaking English but born in Germany, would be German.

 

For people migrating to this Nation, especially by choice and with any hope to succeed (must assume a reason for the migration, today) they should speak the language and at least understand the culture.

[zapatos]

I simply have a problem trying to placate a situation that our government should never have let happen in the first place.

It bothers me that when some people have a situation they don't like, their solution is to expand the oversight of government. The last thing I need is to have the government come in and tell me how to set up my phone system to communicate with my customers!

[A Tripolation]

Trip; Just noticed your comment...When you talk in past tense, "Perseverance was all she had" or your Dad's previous efforts (taken as past tense) for your grand folks, it raised that question. Now, I'm led to believe both your parents are around and am wondering if those mentioned grand parents, lived in the US or in Panama, ringing up all that debt. While I'm being inquisitive, any person that breaks a leg, would normally go to the emergency room of any Hospital, maybe even calling an ambulance. If you were around this would have been well after 1970 and payment not an issue. If before, were talking cents on the dollar and hospitals, since they have existed, worked out moderate payments plan or the Red Cross or some charity/Church would step and pay the bill. I'm really not liking your views of Historical America or our traditions....while it's only my opinion, it might be misleading to other young minds.

 

I used the past tense because the events of which I spoke occurred in the past.

 

And no, the only hospital around here has and always will be quite expensive. Just today I paid 92 dollars out of pocket for a general physician to see me for ten minutes and tell me what I already knew was wrong.

So it's still expensive.

And no, I have no way to access any kind of reasonable health insurance whatsoever. I'm just old enough to not be covered by Kentucky's Medicaid program.

 

I'm not lying to young minds.

[rigney]

It bothers me that when some people have a situation they don't like, their solution is to expand the oversight of government. The last thing I need is to have the government come in and tell me how to set up my phone system to communicate with my customers!

I honestly didn't mean for it to come off like that. Here's a quote from someone in another forum that probably makes more sense than mine ever would.

 

Quote:

”We are one of very few countries without a national language. If I could go back in time, I would have asked our founding fathers to put it in the Constitution as a requirement of citizenship. We waste too much money to duplicate documents for government and business. We think too lightly of language and its significance. Language is what binds us together and makes us one nation.” — John (Rocklin, CA) Unquote.

 

This would not mandate 'English Only' be spoken. If that were the case, my own dialect would likely prohibit me from getting a drivers license. No!, people of a specific ethnicity are going to speak the language of that area come hell or high water, and as they should. But to be multilingual in our schools and laws? It should not be necessary or allowed. One nation, one people, one government, and one set of rules for all.

 

I used the past tense because the events of which I spoke occurred in the past.

 

And no, the only hospital around here has and always will be quite expensive. Just today I paid 92 dollars out of pocket for a general physician to see me for ten minutes and tell me what I already knew was wrong.

So it's still expensive.

And no, I have no way to access any kind of reasonable health insurance whatsoever. I'm just old enough to not be covered by Kentucky's Medicaid program.

 

I'm not lying to young minds.

 

I've been on Medicare for thirteen years and see both my G.P. and Cardeologist three times yearly, costing me personally, $79.00 each trip. The governments cost? I have no idea. Guess I'm just lucky. And like you, each of them check my weight, pulse, blood pressure, listen to my lungs and ask me how I'm doing? Sure wish one of them could give me an answer rather than a question. And to think, if I could have afforded going to med school instead of the army, "My oh My". Oh! and when you do retire, it cuts deeply into the budget for "scotch", gin, bourbon, vodak and rum. Remy Martin V.S.O.P. is a thing of the past, so I went primarily to scotch.

Edited October 20, 2010 by rigney