What is going on in France?

[Pangloss]

I'm confused by the news stories out of France -- I don't understand why such a broad spectrum of people, including young people, are so concerned about the raising of the retirement age from 60-62(early)/65-67(full). Is this really just a general resistance to any pullback from an entitlement culture, or is it, for example, more of a broad attack on a distant ruling elite that's out of touch on many issues?

 

I thought perhaps our international membership might be able to shed some light on this.

 

Here's a story at the beeb for background:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11570828

[D H]

Well it ain't called the third rail of politics for nothing. Europe is just a little ahead of the US here. Too many people are living well past retirement age nowadays. Sans passing a law to make it illegal to have an 80th birthday, the only options to sustain this Ponzi scheme are to defer payments, decrease payments, or increase taxes.

 

We will soon be seeing the same phenomenon in the US. The numbers don't add up; the status quo is unsustainable over the long haul. Raising the retirement age is an inevitability, and ever more politicians are seeing that they will soon have to deal with this inevitability. I don't have the time to find concrete references, but I have heard several politicians on Sunday AM talk shows start to take meagre steps toward that third rail. They aren't stepping on it yet, but they soon will be.

Edited October 19, 2010 by D H

[timo]

I'm confused by the news stories out of France -- I don't understand why such a broad spectrum of people, including young people, are so concerned about the raising of the retirement age from 60-62(early)/65-67(full). Is this really just a general resistance to any pullback from an entitlement culture, or is it, for example, more of a broad attack on a distant ruling elite that's out of touch on many issues?

I have not looked into the current issues. But perhaps to put it into scale for you: street riots can almost be considered part of the French culture (it's tempting to date this tradition back to 1789). It's no state of absolute emergency as it might be considered if it happened in the US or UK, but something that occurs rather frequently like perhaps once every two years or so. Last time I heard about was street riots in Grenoble this summer after police shot some robbers (if someone is interested: random link I found). The time before was perhaps last summer after police chased a kid who then hid in a transformer facility and died of electrocution. Drastic protests against political decisions are "typically French", too. But I don't have an example at the moment.

So to answer your question: I think apart from the obvious fact that people have to "give away something" it is a general expression of disappointment with "the government" and also a bit of French lifestyle (possibly related to the large amount of African immigrants living in France).

 

And I don't quite see why it is surprising that young people also care about retirement age. They are at least as affected as the older ones. In fact, if the change is implemented gradually (which I would expect), then they are those who are affected the most.

[CharonY]

It is a very French attitude and tradition. They love their strikes and protests. Similar things happened when they cut subventions for farmers, for example. I also recall a general strike in the 90s while the government tried to enact some kind of social reform or other (I assume social cutbacks). There were a few smaller ones, too. Essentially, if sufficient people are unhappy with government policy there, they strike and take it to the streets. More often than not, there are a lot of sympathizers (or people who just love enjoy a nice protest). Actually, I think that the first general strike ever held was held in France, too.

[Pangloss]

Interesting -- I'd not heard the word "subventions" before, and had to look it up. Apparently an alternate to the word "subsidy". Thanks!

[CaptainPanic]

While all that was mentioned above about the retirement age is true (as far as I know), I believe that a large group of people also join the protest and riots because they simply do not like their leaders. It's a more general protest. The strikes are almost always organized, and almost always have a reason regarding workers' rights, income, holidays or retirement age...

 

But I believe that especially people in the "banlieue" (outskirts of a city) feel misunderstood and ignored by their politics leaders... or even discriminated against. The police is not respected by young people in most of the country, but while people usually just mock the police (with words and jokes), in some areas this becomes a real conflict.

[Pangloss]

Ok, just to expand the discussion a bit, this is what Main Street Americans are afraid will happen if this country if the progressive movement is allowed to control our direction for too long. The general sense, right or wrong (I'm just setting the ground work here), is that France has moved so far to the left that it has become an "entitlement society", used to its privileges and unwilling to face the reality that money doesn't grow on trees. When during a recession it becomes time to curtail some of those expensive a bit, they freak out. The fear is that the same thing will happen in the US if people become used to living in a nanny state.

 

Now I deliberately put some Fox News-like phrasing in there just to express it as simply as possible, so please don't freak out on me. (grin) I generally do lean in that direction myself, but I try to take a more pragmatic and open-minded view of things than the above, and I'm posing this as a question for discussion.

 

So there's the meme -- how is it right or wrong? What do you all think?

[John Cuthber]

I'm not sure but I think France has recently (say, the last 10 years or so) moved to the right. So the general sense of the 95% or so of the world outside the US isn't likely to be that " France has moved so far to the left ..."

 

Also, if I were a student and was going to be looking for a job shortly I wouldn't want a whole bunch of old folks cluttering up the jobs market. It makes perfect sense for young people to protest.

It's perfectly reasonable of them to do so. There are several options- raise the retirement age, lower the benefits or raise the contributions. Perhaps these people prefer one (or more) of the options the government isn't using.

[Pangloss]

So... maybe they moved so far to the left that when they moved back to the right it created stress. The people there were okay with some movement back to the right, but when they started losing major entitlements they started to get upset.

 

Just joining the speculation here.

[CaptainPanic]

I do not think that the actual position on the left-to-right-scale has anything to do with it.

People are losing something, so they protest. Doesn't matter whether the country is left or right. People don't compare their situation to that in other countries, they compare their current situation to the past, and to the expected future.

 

One major difference between France and other countries is the power of the labour unions... They are able to organize themselves quite well, and the people have the motivation to be a member, and to join in protests and strikes.

In other words, I think that the scale of the protests can be attributed to the organizational skills of the unions.

[Sayonara]

Not wishing to stereotype or anything but the French individual sense of entitlement is certainly not new.

[jackson33]

I don't know CP, but if 70% of the general public supports the minority Union Led riots, one would think the Nation is pretty far right. This went on in 1995 as well, with the unions getting the then reform act stopped. What I don't understand are those actually rioting, at least from pictures, who seem to be 30-40 years from retirement and should know their current system can't be maintained.

 

Today's news, several pictures...

 

Thousands of trade unionists threatened flights arriving in and out of Marseilles-Provence, one of the principal airports in the south of France.[/Quote]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322441/France-riots-Chaos-airports-blockaded-ninth-day-protests.html

[CaptainPanic]

jackson33,

I did not claim that France is either right or left. I just gave a view which was different from that of Pangloss (who tried to imitate Fox News).

 

You seem to assume that everybody who is rioting actually does this for the same purpose (namely the retirement age), a point which cannot be proven.

I strongly believe that the most violent riots have little or nothing to do with the strikes that are coordinated by the unions. Widespread destruction aren't very good for negotiations... also in France.

 

But, that said, a normal (annoying, but peaceful) strike is a right that the French enjoy to the fullest.

[Pangloss]

I do not think that the actual position on the left-to-right-scale has anything to do with it.

People are losing something, so they protest. Doesn't matter whether the country is left or right. People don't compare their situation to that in other countries, they compare their current situation to the past, and to the expected future.

 

Not wishing to stereotype or anything but the French individual sense of entitlement is certainly not new.

 

Fox News-like or not, what I'm saying is that to me these sound like justifications for why American conservatives fear the left. They sound like really good reasons not to allow the United States to become an entitlement society.

[John Cuthber]

If some French politician suddenly raised taxes the French might very well go on strike because of a swing to the Left.

It's change that upsets people.

 

(from someone who wonders why his Prime minister thinks adding half a million to the dole queues is a good thing to do in a recession)

[Pangloss]

Fox News-like or not, what I'm saying is that to me these sound like justifications for why American conservatives fear the left. They sound like really good reasons not to allow the United States to become an entitlement society.

 

By the way, over 40 million Americans are now on food stamps.

[padren]

Ok, just to expand the discussion a bit, this is what Main Street Americans are afraid will happen if this country if the progressive movement is allowed to control our direction for too long. The general sense, right or wrong (I'm just setting the ground work here), is that France has moved so far to the left that it has become an "entitlement society", used to its privileges and unwilling to face the reality that money doesn't grow on trees. When during a recession it becomes time to curtail some of those expensive a bit, they freak out. The fear is that the same thing will happen in the US if people become used to living in a nanny state.

 

Now I deliberately put some Fox News-like phrasing in there just to express it as simply as possible, so please don't freak out on me. (grin) I generally do lean in that direction myself, but I try to take a more pragmatic and open-minded view of things than the above, and I'm posing this as a question for discussion.

 

So there's the meme -- how is it right or wrong? What do you all think?

 

This is the problem with people of either political wing taking their information about the opposing side almost exclusively from their own side. Any group or organization will develop a sense of identity, and become biased towards views that justify and validate it's existence. There is no more truth to the left wanting an "entitlement society" than there is to that of the right wanting an authoritarian theocracy. Both groups play off the fears generated by the most extreme of the other side, and ironically both sides are more tolerant of their own extremes in as of much as they help "defeat" the extremes on the other side, when neither have the popularity to push an agenda otherwise to begin with.

 

 

As for the mentality of the angry French protesters, I can't speak to their minds but generally I don't think it's a failure to understand that money isn't free that causes the problem. It's a breakdown in trust that the problem is honestly dealt with in good faith. I don't know the situation well enough, but for example if the financial shortage followed massive tax cuts for the rich on the promise it would not be allowed to affect entitlement programs, then the breakdown in trust would be understandable. It's not that people people are saying "But we deserve it, even if there's nothing there to pay for it" but they are saying "we don't believe you" that drives this sort of thing.

 

My two cents at least.

[CaptainPanic]

Fox News-like or not, what I'm saying is that to me these sound like justifications for why American conservatives fear the left. They sound like really good reasons not to allow the United States to become an entitlement society.

Of course. I think that any excuse will do to fear the left... and it certainly doesn't need to be objective.

 

Facts:

Widespread strikes, riots. ZERO dead people. Only material and economic damage. Most people still go to work every day. Current president, compared to previous French presidents, is one of the most right wing presidents in ages.

 

Probably on FOX news as:

France lies in ruins. Public life comes to a grinding halt. It's a small miracle that the Eiffel Tower still stands. They are left wing surrender monkeys.

 

Just remember that France isn't such a bad place to live in. They only work 35 hrs per week. They stop at the age of 60. They enjoy 40 days off each year (!!!). Their lunch breaks take 1.5 hrs on average, and they eat good food during that lunch break, sometimes even with a glass of wine. And still it is among the richest countries in the world. Conservatives may not like those surrender monkeys - I personally draw my own conclusions. I like that country.

[CharonY]

I suppose you could have bloody riots if you take away their food and wine. Even surrender monkeys have their limits.

[Pangloss]

France lies in ruins. Public life comes to a grinding halt. It's a small miracle that the Eiffel Tower still stands. They are left wing surrender monkeys.

 

Not from what I've seen. The news approach is to ask the question, suggesting an answer, not actually giving you one. Fox had a very good education on this from the older news organizations.

 

 

Conservatives may not like those surrender monkeys - I personally draw my own conclusions. I like that country.

 

You forgot "cheese-eating"! (Thank you Homer Simpson!)

 

But seriously, it's not about like or dislike. I enjoyed my time in that country very much. I remember some people seeming intolerant of people like me doing a hatchet-job of their beautiful language, but I also remember the tiny corner cafe owner who ran two blocks down a busy evening street to return my forgotten (and very expensive) camera to me. They definitely have a unique character all their own (which from what I've read in this thread may play a role here), but I'm sure they've all got their up and down days just like anybody else.

 

None of which really answers my question, I suppose, but I'm not sure it's one we can completely answer anyway.

[The Bear's Key]

Ok, just to expand the discussion a bit, this is what Main Street Americans are afraid will happen.

Don't you mean "Wall Street"?

 

 

The fear is that the same thing will happen in the US if people become used to living in a nanny state.

Fox News-like or not, what I'm saying is that to me these sound like justifications for why American conservatives fear the left.

No, the following is what their "conservative" politicians/industry heads* really fear....

 

 

Just remember that France isn't such a bad place to live in. They only work 35 hrs per week. They stop at the age of 60. They enjoy 40 days off each year (!!!). Their lunch breaks take 1.5 hrs on average, and they eat good food during that lunch break, sometimes even with a glass of wine. And still it is among the richest countries in the world.

 

 

*who are vastly more elite than France (and have a vastly higher sense of entitlement to shift due taxes onto the middle class, use our infrastructure without paying for it, buy our government's elected leaders without our permission, hire cheap illegals, and kick we the people from our homes via eminent domain for their wealth seeking)

[Pangloss]

I think that patronizing and dismissing conservatives is what's gotten liberals into the mess they're about to experience over the next 24 hours.

[Dak]

The general sense, right or wrong (I'm just setting the ground work here), is that France has moved so far to the left that it has become an "entitlement society", used to its privileges and unwilling to face the reality that money doesn't grow on trees.

 

 

[edit]

Just realised: the French are effectively demanding that the government carry on taxing them to pay for the oldun's retirement, so it's really not about them feeling that they're entitled: rather, they probably feel that the olduns have bought their entitlement by paying for the now-dead generation's retirement, and they want their chance to buy their entitlement by giving the olduns what they've payed for.

 

also bear in mind that if France is like the UK then the (involuntary) national insurance is seperate from tax, so it's clear that the olduns have already payed for their state pension. If the did that privately, they could sue a company for rewriting their end of the contract.

 

Also what Timo said: the French are famous for throwing wobblies.

[/edit]

[The Bear's Key]

@Pangloss

 

Who dismissed conservatives? I put the word in quotations for a reason: the politicians and industry heads who pretend to be conservatives made the propaganda noise, for which the real conservatives are being taken for a ride.

 

Fiscal conservatism.

Small government.

Deregulation.

Free enterprise.

States rights.

 

Great ideas...only if balanced with the left's platforms. However, "conservative" politicians set it up to replace/destroy the left's part, with the result being a harmful imbalace.

 

The right's platforms aren't better or worse than the left's -- if the plan were balance. However, many of the Right's converted get hung up on those platitudes above.

 

I say to those, who repeat such mantras...

 

"Don't regurgitate stuff. Give me your own thoughts."

 

Why don't conservatives allow government to compete with business if the market's failing to produce a (quality) necessity to everyone? You've said liberals haven't compromised, but that's how deep you're entrenched in a narrow view.

 

Liberals philosophy has compromised from the very beginning, where conservative philosophy doesn't, and here's the numbers: liberal philosophy in the U.S. wants less than 100% of healthcare run by government (i.e. business has a place in the result), yet conservative philosophy wants all 100% of healthcare run by private interests -- even when their setup neglects much of the population (i.e. government has no place in the result).

 

You still say there's no compromise by the left? Your answer might shed light on the reason for my post which you seemed to find offensive. But hopefully instead, you do an honest comparison as I expect.

 

Keep in mind, that healthcare example has similar, real-life counterparts in the other platforms I listed at top. Since you're the proponent of not dismissing concerns, then why not address the concern by the left -- about their philosophical compromises not getting any mutual response or token gesture by conservative philosophy? And that the left does seek to work together, but the right seeks to instead dominate the platforms and replace the left's contributions with their own?

 

Also you had nothing to say in reply to the part I quoted from CaptainPanic's post.

Edited November 2, 2010 by The Bear's Key

[Pangloss]

Also what Timo said: the French are famous for throwing wobblies.

 

"Throwing wobblies?" Is that a figurative term or some sort of nick-nack that's actually thrown at rallies or something? Just curious -- I love political terms.

 

I agree with much of your above post, I'm just saying that much of the motivation for much of the American people at the moment is a media narrative that doesn't match their ideology and compounded by a feeling of being ignored. I get that France has some pros to go with the cons, but it's presumptive to say that the American people don't know this and are really being fear-driven by Fox News et al, and it compounds the problem to say so because when you tell someone "your facts are wrong" they often hear it as "your ideology is wrong". And it's not just the right that behaves that way.

 

If you want to convince the American people to construct more (and more expensive) social welfare programs, first call them safety nets, and second only build them when the budget is balanced, the people are all employed, and there are plenty of presents under the CHRISTMAS tree. They'll happily go along for the ride.