Is alcohol good for society?

[Mr Skeptic]

Yeah, funny how we can both drink ethanol and put some in our gas tank. Just be warned that the biofuels ethanol is usually poisoned, to prevent people from getting their fix without paying tax.

[the tree]

No one needs it.

This is true, for the most part. So presumably what you're suggesting is that if a certain freedom isn't strictly needed - then there'd be no harm in removing that freedom?

 

Carrying that on, why not ban artificial sweeteners? Everyone knows they do more harm than good, no-one needs them and because I personally don't like the taste of them (I tried one once) that must mean that they objectively taste bad.

 

Popping candy for that matter, sailing, music festivals, the right to leave the house at night, rock climbing, churches - why not ban all of those?

 

People become easily addicted by it.

The vast majority of people who drink never develop an addiction, that much is little bit obvious.

 

I don't intentionally poison myself...

You've never had a cup of coffee? You have any idea what is in that?

 

And I have seen how people act when they are drunk...

Believe it or not, drinking does not have to lead to drunkenness.

 

that is all the experience I need.

You seem to have some pretty large gaps in your understanding of what alcohol is (it is ethanol), what it does, how it's made, the concept of living in a free country, how arguments are formed and what the purpose of an ellipsis is - it would seem you need an awful lot more experience.

[Incendia]

This is true, for the most part. So presumably what you're suggesting is that if a certain freedom isn't strictly needed - then there'd be no harm in removing that freedom?

Correct.

Carrying that on, why not ban artificial sweeteners? Everyone knows they do more harm than good, no-one needs them and because I personally don't like the taste of them (I tried one once) that must mean that they objectively taste bad.

I like the taste. And not all do harm.

Popping candy for that matter, sailing, music festivals, the right to leave the house at night, rock climbing, churches - why not ban all of those?

Those are different...none of those things are poisons...Why not sell cyanide bottles if you are going to sell alcohol? Your question is just as crazy.

The vast majority of people who drink never develop an addiction, that much is little bit obvious.

From my observations they all develop a small addiction...If they didn't why are you defending it in full knowledge that is poisonous?

You've never had a cup of coffee? You have any idea what is in that?

Actually no...I don't drink coffee...yes the chemicals in coffee beans including caffeine.

Believe it or not, drinking does not have to lead to drunkenness.

The smallest amount still leads to loss of mental functions such a motor skills...Hence the fact you are not allowed to drink and drive even after only 1 drink...

You seem to have some pretty large gaps in your understanding of what alcohol is (it is ethanol), what it does, how it's made, the concept of living in a free country, how arguments are formed and what the purpose of an ellipsis is - it would seem you need an awful lot more experience.

Alcohol is a liquid that contains ethanol...Ethanol is pure alcohol...But no-body drinks that...It's a poison that leads to loss of mental functions such as motor skills...No-one lives in a free country, there are laws...I don't argue much...I know what they are for, I just have a habit of using them instead of a full-stop and a space...

I'm pretty sure the argument of health and money is better than your simple and worse argument of it makes people get along better.

 

 

In bold I have added my comments ^^

 

 

[the tree]

This is true, for the most part. So presumably what you're suggesting is that if a certain freedom isn't strictly needed - then there'd be no harm in removing that freedom?

Correct.

I'd strongly suggest reading up on the prohibition in America, or for that matter just watching a few Mafia films.

 

Carrying that on, why not ban artificial sweeteners? Everyone knows they do more harm than good, no-one needs them and because I personally don't like the taste of them (I tried one once) that must mean that they objectively taste bad.

I like the taste. And not all do harm.

No no no, you're missing my point - if you get to declare that alcohol tastes bad an impose that opinion on the rest of us - then I should get to do the same with artificial sweeteners. And yes, they all do harm - they release insulin unnaturally when there is no sugar around for that insulin to deal with, this leads to all types of problems.

 

Popping candy for that matter, sailing, music festivals, the right to leave the house at night, rock climbing, churches - why not ban all of those?

Those are different...none of those things are poisons...

I would argue that popping candy is unpleasant enough to warrant a poison and sailing and rock climbing is plenty dangerous. Not to mention how going out at night can lead to catching the flu.

 

Why not sell cyanide bottles if you are going to sell alcohol? Your question is just as crazy.

There are restrictions on buying cyanide, since it can be used as a weapon, but you can buy it.

 

The vast majority of people who drink never develop an addiction, that much is little bit obvious.

From my observations they all develop a small addiction...

Seriously? Anecdotal evidence? What do you imagine the title of this website is?

 

If they didn't why are you defending it in full knowledge that is poisonous?

Because personal freedoms are important. (how many times with 'the poison is in the dose' have to be repeated?)

 

Believe it or not, drinking does not have to lead to drunkenness.

The smallest amount still leads to loss of mental functions such a motor skills...Hence the fact you are not allowed to drink and drive even after only 1 drink...

This kind of statement is what gives the impression that you don't know what you're talking about: a single pint of beer wouldn't put a healthy person over the UK driving limit.

 

You seem to have some pretty large gaps in your understanding of what alcohol is (it is ethanol), what it does, how it's made, the concept of living in a free country, how arguments are formed and what the purpose of an ellipsis is - it would seem you need an awful lot more experience.

Alcohol is a liquid that contains ethanol...Ethanol is pure alcohol...But no-body drinks that...It's a poison that leads to loss of mental functions such as motor skills...No-one lives in a free country, there are laws...I don't argue much...I know what they are for, I just have a habit of using them instead of a full-stop and a space...

I'm pretty sure the argument of health and money is better than your simple and worse argument of it makes people get along better.

Oh heavens there is an awful lot of stupid here.

• Alcohol is a general family of molecules, of which ethanol is a subset.
  
• Some people drink pure alcohol - it is a very bad idea but generally speaking not lethal and it makes for an okay bucket list item.
  
• Having laws doesn't stop a citizen being free, being unable to make choices about their individual lifestyle does.
  
• THE POISON IS IN THE BLOODY DOSE.
  
• It's pretty evident that you're not used to forming cogent arguments, there's no reason to point that out.
  
• Languages have conventions for a reason.
  
• Me and Captain Panic aren't the same person, I never mentioned alcohol helping people get along, please pay attention to whom you're addressing - it comes across as extremely rude otherwise.
  

Please excuse whatever I missed in whateverthehell that was.

 

In bold I have added my comments ^^

Fixing that in order to produce a legible response was super exiting and not whatsoever tedious, thankyou. Edited December 8, 2010 by the tree

[AndrewSr]

Using E85 is one of the ways of freeing the U.S. From the oil Cartel... Its not the gas milage thats the Issue here ... By using E85 the U.S. Has some leverage as an alternate fuel... Ethanol from sugar is 8 times more potent than from other sources...corn..etc. If one were to do the math 8 times more potent seems to add up to 8 times as much. See the Point.? And the U.S. Gets the added benefit of having an alternate fuel source.. ( the only sustainable fuel source seems to be the renewable fuel ssources ) Cheers.

[Doc. Josh]

Looks like someone needs a drink....... Try a triple captain and coke on the rocks incendia.

[apis]

I think so.

[padren]

Considering that the majority of ancestors in our genealogical lineage are bound to have partaken in cultural consumption of alcohol, combined with it's known effects on inhibitions... it may very well be that the majority of us owe our every existence to alcohol.

 

 

I wish society well with whatever it deems is good for it, but personally I like existing and would rather prefer a world where alcohol was there when I needed it.

 

 

 

Side question:

 

Would Churchill have been as much fun/effective sober?

 

What about Vincent Van Gogh?

[jeskill]

Is alcohol good for society?

 

I think that depends on water quality...

Nearly every citizen of the day knew that drinking water could make you deathly ill. Ale drinkers were somehow spared this affliction and therefore most people soon substituted a frequent imbibing of ale over the dreaded curse of water.

 

Seriously, I think that a culture of prohibition has far negative effects than a culture of moderate imbibation (is that even a word? Oh well.) Prohibition == more incarceration, which is, IMO, not a good use of public funds. Better to have a culture that normalizes moderate consumption.

 

And as for those muslim countries ...

 

Wikileaks shows Saudi wild party with Alcohol, drugs, sex and prostitutes

 

Turkish raki is yummy and good with meze.

 

Many Iranians seem to drink.

Alcohol consumption is still widespread in Iran despite the prohibition imposed after the 1979 Islamic revolution. There is a large black market for alcohol illegally imported from neighboring countries and many Iranians also make their own home brews.

[The Skilled Noob]

Does alcohol do more good or harm to society? Would abolishing alcohol consumption for people in society make it a better place to live? What are the most recent scientific evidence suggesting?

 

 

 

"Is alcohol good for society?"

 

 

Harm.

With the way things are now, society is never going to stop consuming alcohol for who knows how long.

 

Scientific evidence? What the fuck do I need that for to state that alcohol HUGELY contributes to how many people die every fucking year because of drunk fucking driving?

 

If I had my way, alcohol wouldn't even fucking exist!

[Yoseph]

Alcohol is used to numb people to the empty and meaningless lives they live, something that someone in an unfulfilling job can work for and look forward to at the end of the week. I would say that it used to control people and make them work, but really we use it on ourselves because we are weak and it blocks our life pains.

[Appolinaria]

Alcohol affects our natural state & alters our thinking.

 

Even if you can handle alcohol, it's the product of decay and I don't think we should consume it.

[cx1341]

I honestly think that alcohol does more harm to our society. Some people have become so dependent on it and it only brings problems with it. I think it's too late to abolish from society but it does seem like a good suggestion theoretically. Then again, if it were banned more people would still continue to do it anyways.

[CaptainPanic]

I honestly think that alcohol does more harm to our society. Some people have become so dependent on it and it only brings problems with it. I think it's too late to abolish from society but it does seem like a good suggestion theoretically. Then again, if it were banned more people would still continue to do it anyways.

You talk about society, and then you talk about "some people".

 

You do realize that society means "the whole group", don't you? If you want to talk about society, you cannot focus on the problems of a few only, and ignore all the rest of the people.

 

Can you see nothing positive about alcohol at all? No social aspects that are beneficial? You never found just a little more courage to talk to a man/woman because you had a drink? You were never able to meet some interesting people at a reception, which turned out to be good customers or business partners? Where do you live, just around the corner from the alcohol-abuse-center? In my town, the very large majority of people drink alcohol, but there really aren't too many people with problems. Almost everybody seems to be able to drink, but also to have a good job. Unemployment is really low. Culturally, the town thrives. We have excellent sports clubs. Society as a whole seems to function quite well, despite all the drinking!

 

So, if we want to continue this thread, shall we at least talk about society, and not just about the few individuals who make it into the Monday morning newspapers with their drunken stupidity? The question is not "Is drinking too much a good idea?". The questions is " Is alcohol good for society?". Stay on topic.

Edited October 5, 2011 by CaptainPanic

[Appolinaria]

You talk about society, and then you talk about "some people".

 

You do realize that society means "the whole group", don't you? If you want to talk about society, you cannot focus on the problems of a few only, and ignore all the rest of the people.

 

Can you see nothing positive about alcohol at all? No social aspects that are beneficial? You never found just a little more courage to talk to a man/woman because you had a drink? You were never able to meet some interesting people at a reception, which turned out to be good customers or business partners? Where do you live, just around the corner from the alcohol-abuse-center? In my town, the very large majority of people drink alcohol, but there really aren't too many people with problems. Almost everybody seems to be able to drink, but also to have a good job. Unemployment is really low. Culturally, the town thrives. We have excellent sports clubs. Society as a whole seems to function quite well, despite all the drinking!

 

So, if we want to continue this thread, shall we at least talk about society, and not just about the few individuals who make it into the Monday morning newspapers with their drunken stupidity? The question is not "Is drinking too much a good idea?". The questions is " Is alcohol good for society?". Stay on topic.

 

Couldn't the dependency of "some people" affect society as a whole? So therefore, she is on topic.

 

 

For example, in Russia, alcoholism is so bad that many are driven to suicide. Fathers leave their women & children, families are destroyed, populations of ethnic groups dwindle. It's clear that alcoholism of one person can affect many others.

 

What about alcohol related car accidents where people are killed? Of course that affects society. That's like saying a murderer is no danger to society. If the person wasn't consuming alcohol, they probably wouldn't have killed someone.

 

 

 

 

 

There will ALWAYS be 2 sides to an argument, shades of black and white, it's just discerning which is more prevalent. Overall, I think the negative aspects of alcohol FAR outweigh the positive.

[CaptainPanic]

Couldn't the dependency of "some people" affect society as a whole? So therefore, she is on topic.

Good point. It does affect everybody, but the negative things are not the only effect that alcohol has on society. I just don't understand you cannot see any positive things about alcohol.

 

For example, in Russia, alcoholism is so bad that many are driven to suicide. Fathers leave their women & children, families are destroyed, populations of ethnic groups dwindle. It's clear that alcoholism of one person can affect many others.

Ok. So it is bad for Russian society. I don't live in Russia, and I have no idea about its problems... so I will accept that from you.

 

But what about other societies? In the Netherlands, according to this list, we drink 13.25 liter of alcohol per person per year. Russia is more with 15.76, but the difference is not huge. But we don't kill ourselves, and we also don't drink-and-drive much. In general, people behave themselves and don't drink too much.

 

I get the idea that you (and others in this thread) keep focussing only on the negative examples, but I think it is not fair.

 

What about alcohol related car accidents where people are killed? Of course that affects society. That's like saying a murderer is no danger to society. If the person wasn't consuming alcohol, they probably wouldn't have killed someone.

What about all the babies that are born because of a romantic candlelight dinner with a glass of wine?

 

There will ALWAYS be 2 sides to an argument, shades of black and white, it's just discerning which is more prevalent. Overall, I think the negative aspects of alcohol FAR outweigh the positive.

And I enjoy going out and having a beer. And I maintain that you're searching all around the world for problems to point out...

[imatfaal]

We in the UK have practically the same consumption in litres per person per year as the Netherlands - yet our social problems are very different; perhaps there is little actual correlation with alcohol consumption? And even if there is correlation between social problems and alcohol consumption Correlation IS NOT causation; it is just as likely that those countries with deep-rooted social problems have low levels of happiness, which in turn cause their inhabitants to have a drink as the sole amelioration in a desperate existence. that is is to say that without proof it is equally probably that raised alcohol consumption is cause OR effect.

 

Looking at the list of countries by alcohol consumption on Wikipedia - I must say that I have spent extended periods in 6 of the top 25, and found the people welcoming, friendly, and cheerful - all of which I would return to at the drop of a hat (incl R'dam Capt P!) . I have visited 4 of the bottom 20 and would only want to return to one of them - a major problem being the repressive and restrictive nature of the society (which to an extent concerned the prohibition on alcohol but mainly the disgraceful treatment of women)

[amanda more]

Good point. It does affect everybody, but the negative things are not the only effect that alcohol has on society. I just don't understand you cannot see any positive things about alcohol.

 

 

Ok. So it is bad for Russian society. I don't live in Russia, and I have no idea about its problems... so I will accept that from you.

 

But what about other societies? In the Netherlands, according to this list, we drink 13.25 liter of alcohol per person per year. Russia is more with 15.76, but the difference is not huge. But we don't kill ourselves, and we also don't drink-and-drive much. In general, people behave themselves and don't drink too much.

 

I get the idea that you (and others in this thread) keep focussing only on the negative examples, but I think it is not fair.

 

 

What about all the babies that are born because of a romantic candlelight dinner with a glass of wine?

 

 

And I enjoy going out and having a beer. And I maintain that you're searching all around the world for problems to point out...

http://www.saffrance.fr/en/home/fetal-alcohol-syndrome/questionsanswers.html

 

"In France, it is estimated that the "trouble" caused by alcohol during pregnancy affects 1% of births, that is to say 7,000 new children each year. This means that about 500,000 French suffer to varying degrees of fetal alcohol effects. The fetal alcohol syndrome itself is, in France, the leading cause of mental retardation not genetic.

 

It affects one birth in 3000 in the Pas-de-Calais. Alcoholism in France affects 2 million people, including 600 000 women (the latter statistic is particularly questionable: rigorous evaluation is very difficult due to almost constant denial of facts).

 

During pregnancy, 5% of women drink three glasses of alcohol per day on average, which is already a danger to the unborn child. Experts now believe that the risk appears on the first glass is the reason why, during pregnancy, should maintain a strict abstinence."

 

 

The frank syndrome is now obvious to pediatricians but the more subtle effects are even more widespread. In the US the nonuse of condoms is heavily associated with drinking. If that female is then in the habit of drinking she may continue to do so before she knows she is pregnant. Withdrawal from heavy drinking is not publicized but for an alcoholic it is more dangerous than heroin withdrawal. Quitting can kill.

 

So as devastating as birth defects that cause mental retardation are the large numbers of mentally retarded are actually caused not by pure bad luck but an induced poison.

 

I can imagine churchgoers are more guilty of causing this as they are inundated with messages they will go to hell if they end an alcohol exposed pregnancy.

 

 

 

 

[amanda more]

We in the UK have practically the same consumption in litres per person per year as the Netherlands - yet our social problems are very different; perhaps there is little actual correlation with alcohol consumption? And even if there is correlation between social problems and alcohol consumption Correlation IS NOT causation; it is just as likely that those countries with deep-rooted social problems have low levels of happiness, which in turn cause their inhabitants to have a drink as the sole amelioration in a desperate existence. that is is to say that without proof it is equally probably that raised alcohol consumption is cause OR effect.

 

Looking at the list of countries by alcohol consumption on Wikipedia - I must say that I have spent extended periods in 6 of the top 25, and found the people welcoming, friendly, and cheerful - all of which I would return to at the drop of a hat (incl R'dam Capt P!) . I have visited 4 of the bottom 20 and would only want to return to one of them - a major problem being the repressive and restrictive nature of the society (which to an extent concerned the prohibition on alcohol but mainly the disgraceful treatment of women)

 

I wonder if UK riots had a few drunks in them. Plus the cultural aspect of hooligans at football (some I presume drinking) may have made that behavior noticeable if not acceptable.

[CaptainPanic]

Ok, ok, ok... let's summarize the thread. The question we're answering is: "Is alcohol good for society?"

 

If I had to draw conclusions from the posts in this thread so far, then I would conclude the following things:

 

- Alcohol is really bad for society

- People would be a lot healthier if alcohol wouldn't be consumed

- Babies would have their brains in one piece if mommy wouldn't drink

- People would be a lot happier if alcohol wouldn't be consumed

- People would be a lot richer if alcohol wouldn't be consumed

- Alcohol should actually be banned, but that's not possible because the people who drink it are addicted and would commit crimes to get it

- People who drink alcohol are alcoholics, regardless of the dosage - everybody gets addicted (some disagree with this)

- Alcohol makes people die

 

I had to search long and hard to find anything positive... but apart from a few social gatherings, some births as a result of drinks, and a few artists who seem to get inspiration, I did not find anything. So, is this a good conclusion ot the thread according to you all? I completely disagree with it... but it's what I read here.

 

I think that the thread as a whole is a little unbalanced.

Edited October 6, 2011 by CaptainPanic

[imatfaal]

To add to your positive list Capt - the banning of alcohol from a society creates far more problems than the alcohol itself. I have agreed with almost all yu have said - and I will re-emphasise the importance of booze as an interaction facilitator. I work in central london and my trip back home after work is considerably cheered by the pubs I walk past that are overflowing with happy, talking, laughing and flirting punters.

 

Every single one of the arguments presented would work just as well (badly) replacing alcohol consumption with individual car use for mass transportation

[matty]

Ohgreat, I'm here two minutes and already, a nannyState-thread. Sorry, alcohol's on the side of Grandfathered in, eh, you gotta anything else?

 

Hey, maybe we oughta ban Banning.--I'm thinking there's a worthy debate. ~

[CaptainPanic]

Ohgreat, I'm here two minutes and already, a nannyState-thread. Sorry, alcohol's on the side of Grandfathered in, eh, you gotta anything else?

 

Hey, maybe we oughta ban Banning.--I'm thinking there's a worthy debate. ~

So, you have nothing to say, but you just felt like criticizing the thread - and especially the people who are warning about problems related to alcohol...

 

Why is this such a difficult topic? Most people either choose to focus only on the problems related to alcohol, and now someone else instantly dismisses all those arguments against alcohol as "nanny state".

 

Maybe alcohol is indeed a sensitive topic, and maybe people just can't have a discussion about it.

[matty]

Hey, I'm just bringin' the Balance.

[CaptainPanic]

Hey, I'm just bringin' the Balance.

Umm, no you don't.

You only dismiss someone else's argument - and you do that by ridiculing it, which isn't even a proper argument. You didn't bring any argument into the discussion yourself. Please do that next time, because this is a science forum, not a let's-try-to-ridicule-each-other-forum.