Is alcohol good for society?

[jimmydasaint]

In my opinion, although there are some benefits to health. For example reduction of heart attacks and also ischemic strokes Clinic Link. However, the harm done outweighs the benefits. Statistics from my native country of 5 million people, Scotland, highlight the huge social and health damage that can result from not drinking in moderation. Some of the social costs are listed below, although the health hazards in the same publication are far more severe.

 

• 
   
  
• Alcohol is a factor in half of those accused of homicide in Scotland in 2003
  
• 1 in 6 of those 15 year olds who have drunk alcohol reported trying drugs and 1 in 7 reported have unprotected sex as a consequence of alcohol consumption
  
• 65,000 Scottish children are estimated to live with a parent whose drinking is problematic
  
• A quarter of children on the Child Protection Register are estimated to be there due to parental alcohol or drug misuse
  
• One in three divorces cite excessive drinking by a partner as a contributory factor
  

 

Cost to Scotland of alcohol misuse

 

£820m per year in reduced output and productivity, including work days lost due to alcohol- related absenteeism

£405m per year in NHS services

£170m per year in social work services

£385m per year in criminal justice and emergency services

£418m per year in Human costs (e.g. victims of alcohol-related crime in terms of physical and emotional costs).

 

SHAAP

Edited October 7, 2011 by jimmydasaint

[CaptainPanic]

So, Scotland would be better off if nobody would drink, if Scotch, stouts and ales wouldn't be produced anymore, and if all the pubs were to disappear?

 

Imagine Scotland completely empty of alcohol... Somehow, I can't imagine it would be any fun at all. Yet, one of the Scotsman of the forum seems to suggest just that (don't you?).

[jimmydasaint]

So, Scotland would be better off if nobody would drink, if Scotch, stouts and ales wouldn't be produced anymore, and if all the pubs were to disappear?

 

Imagine Scotland completely empty of alcohol... Somehow, I can't imagine it would be any fun at all. Yet, one of the Scotsman of the forum seems to suggest just that (don't you?).

 

Well it would leave a lot more time for browsing on the Science Forum certainly, and Scotland would be a hell of a lot more peaceful at the weekends! Additionally, people would be forced to improve their fitness by turning to golf, football and other alternative activities. Maybe not a bad idea after all...

 

I am suggesting that, if people drink moderately, they would be fine, and society would benefit from mentally and physically healthier individuals. Yet can we be certain that people would drink in moderation?

[imatfaal]

I think there is fairly general agreement that drinking to excess is very bad - and very few posters have said that moderate drinking is bad; so we are left with a quandary.

 

Do any of the posters who think drinking is bad for society believe that we should implement alcohol bans? I realise this is moving from a hypothetical to a practical question - but I think it is interesting

[CaptainPanic]

I think there is fairly general agreement that drinking to excess is very bad - and very few posters have said that moderate drinking is bad; so we are left with a quandary.

 

Do any of the posters who think drinking is bad for society believe that we should implement alcohol bans? I realise this is moving from a hypothetical to a practical question - but I think it is interesting

If excessive drinking is bad, we should ban excessive drinking... but not drinking in general.

Speeding is illegal, but we don't ban driving as a result. We just ban speeding.

 

Another practical point remains: what is excessive?

We have seen plenty of examples of what is excessive... but if you want to enforce a new law, you must make the picture black-and-white. There must be a line. Cross the line, and you break the law.

 

p.s. It's Friday! Who is going out tonight? I am.

[imatfaal]

I asked the question in that way because I believe it would be impossible to ban excessive drinking - I think it would be highly regrettable and almost impossible to ban all drinking; but to set a limit would be impossible.

 

I think, on balance, drinking is a positive for society and that all the many ills are balanced and more by the relaxing, interaction-enhancing goodness of a pint of beer. At present society deals with the negatives of drinking and benefits from the positives - those who advocat a ban or reduction must also deal with the harm any new measures will cause as well as focussing on the alleged benefits

 

ps It's Friday! I was out at lunch. Who is going out tonight? I am as well

[matty]

Alright, Cap'n, devil's advocate, fair enough...

 

The list of potential societal ills is long and arduous, making its way to the most far-reaching corners so that if we're to obide by this thinking, if we were to actually adhere to it through to legislation, we would see it bleed out to such ridiculous ends as the Internet, Religion, Music, Art, Theatre, Literature, T.v., Radio & all forms of entertainment, including recreation and sports; look at the pink-faced embarrassment at the wide spread corruption recently surfacing across the college football scene, so much that, for the first time in decades, it threatened to call the 'Death Penalty'... Further, you'd have to extend it to such ridiculous but obvious things as eating/health related habits--and we did recently see a sugar tax, a soda pop tax surface in Denver, being tossed around elsewhere not so long ago. Freedom of Speech has only recently been argued to be on that 'slipperyslope' of a list and by four NY Senators http://www.thetechhe...ege-not-a-right, using a 'digital' era as a platform.

 

--So how thinly was it we ever setout/wished not only to spread our resources, in an era seeing such a downturn as this it harkens fairly enough, IMO, to a brush with the Great Depression, but also to end up so far from our original libertarian identity, Land of the Free, anyway?.. At some point, I think we have to pick our battles and not just that, hopefully, but constrain them to what's within sOme semblance of reasoned Sanity still allowing for breathing room of a Free Will. ~That is to suggest--and hardly only from the vantage point of a healthy retrospect--the Least of these potential ills certainly isn't Big Government. Pretending not to see the elephant in the room is but to dare indulge toying with a devil's advocate of another, far more troubling terrain~sounds the mother of all potential societal woes by the end of the equation here, talk about your cumulative err...

Edited October 8, 2011 by matty

[Guest lab_supplies]

I think that if you just abolished alcohol it would just cause more problems. But if we never had it as a society then it would be better if it had never existed.

[Incendia]

Seems to me that the only benefit to alcohol that you pro-alcohol people are providing is that people can socialise better.

Well maybe it's time people learned to talk to each other without having to be drugged and slightly poisoned first.

In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with a society whose members must drug & poison themselves in order to socialise well.

 

Alcohol should be treated as what it is: an addictive, poisonous, drug.

All the other addictive drugs were immediately banned once their addictiveness was discovered, and yet nicotine and alcohol remain legal even though it is well known that they are poisonous, and addictive.

 

I'm not calling for an immediate ban on alcohol - that would be too extreme.

Alcohol needs to be steadily more and more regulated until it can be banned or until the people using it are using it safely.

 

The dangers of alcohol need to remain an important part of education.

Alcohol advertising needs to banned. Tobacco advertising is banned, and alcohol advertising needs to be banned too.

Alcohol cans and bottles must have large warning labels which clearly label them as poisonous, harmful substances which can kill.

Shock images may need to be used. (As is done with tobacco with pictures of diseased lungs, except it would be diseased livers in the case of alcohol.)

 

Such regulation will make alcohol less attractive and will make alcohol less important to society.

Such regulations do work, as has been shown with tobacco. Such regulations on tobacco have lowered use significantly as shown on graph below:

 

 

 

 

----

To those who say "the poison is in the dosage":

Well then, if the poison in the dose, you won't mind drinking this then. It contains cyanide. Don't worry, it's not a fatal dosage.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Incendia

[Leader Bee]

Seems to me that the only benefit to alcohol that you pro-alcohol people are providing is that people can socialise better.

Well maybe it's time people learned to talk to each other without having to be drugged and slightly poisoned first.

In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with a society whose members must drug & poison themselves in order to socialise well.

 

Alcohol should be treated as what it is: an addictive, poisonous, drug.

All the other addictive drugs were immediately banned once their addictiveness was discovered, and yet nicotine and alcohol remain legal even though it is well known that they are poisonous, and addictive.

 

I'm not calling for an immediate ban on alcohol - that would be too extreme.

Alcohol needs to be steadily more and more regulated until it can be banned or until the people using it are using it safely.

 

The dangers of alcohol need to remain an important part of education.

Alcohol advertising needs to banned. Tobacco advertising is banned, and alcohol advertising needs to be banned too.

Alcohol cans and bottles must have large warning labels which clearly label them as poisonous, harmful substances which can kill.

Shock images may need to be used. (As is done with tobacco with pictures of diseased lungs, except it would be diseased livers in the case of alcohol.)

 

Such regulation will make alcohol less attractive and will make alcohol less important to society.

Such regulations do work, as has been shown with tobacco. Such regulations on tobacco have lowered use significantly as shown on graph below:

 

 

 

 

----

To those who say "the poison is in the dosage":

Well then, if the poison in the dose, you won't mind drinking this then. It contains cyanide. Don't worry, it's not a fatal dosage.

 

 

I agree with your sentiments on alcohol advertisements; Personally I don't like the taste of alcohol (though i'll drink it occcasionally) but it seems a lot of people do, though I feel this is not by choice but by social pressure. I can't help but feel that they're drinking it because they're told it's cool and fun and I think that if the marketing of such drinks were downplayed then perhaps the instances of consumption of alcohol (in excess) would drop.

 

However, alcohol has uses other than drinking. 40% alcohol + water is a common base for chemical reactions, it's used in cleaning products, paint strippers etc, used in cooking - steak and ale pie anyone?

 

I know the topic is "how alcohol affects modern society" but I feel I need to mention that once upon a time, alcohol "Mead" was the drink of choice because it was SAFER than water. That being said, water is now treated and is completely safe to drink (some people would argue this I suppose with it being chlorinated) but it's clearly got antibacterial properties and it's useful to have around if youre really stuck - think 3rd world/deprived countries with access to basic equipment, it makes for a good antiseptic and has at least some kind of anesthetic property.

 

Banning it outright would be ludicrous.

 

using alcohol in moderation is the key issue here and some people just don't know what that means.

Perhaps the best thing is to introduce a law similar to the speeding laws but how to administer that law? It's not like you can measure somones alcohol consumption just by taking a few pictures of them dancing badly then sending them a fine in the post for being drunk. What about a breatheliser test at the bar and refuse sale to anyone over the limit and limit the number of sales of bottles of wine one could purchase per visit to the shop?

 

I guess that wouldn't stop people stockpiling the stuff though.

 

I think It's really down to educating people on the dangers of alcohol rather than making it look like a cool lifestyle choice. Most people are smart enough to make their own decisions given the correct information.

[CaptainPanic]

In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with a society whose members must drug & poison themselves in order to socialise well.

Hmm... did you know that your body also makes all kinds of "drugs"? Endorphins for example are like opiates, but are made inside your own body! You make drugs!

And in addition to a lot of drugs that you make yourself, we take a lot of drugs too (not just alcohol or the illegal drugs).

 

[Endorphins] are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates during exercise,[2] excitement, pain, consumption of spicy food, love and orgasm,[3][4] and they resemble the opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.(source: wikipedia)

Here's some more:

Serotonin:

[serotonin] is a well-known contributor to feelings of well-being; it is also known to contribute to happiness

Morphine (yep, the real thing):

Importantly, recent studies have demonstrated that diverse animal and human tissues are in fact capable of producing morphine itself, which is not a peptide.[9][10] (source)

Epinephrine

Epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) is a hormone and a neurotransmitter.[1] It increases heart rate, constricts blood vessels, dilates air passages and participates in the fight-or-flight response of the sympathetic nervous system.[2] Chemically, epinephrine is a catecholamine, a monoamine produced only by the adrenal glands from the amino acids phenylalanine and tyrosine.

 

Is there something seriously wrong with society that we like our own bodies to make all kinds of chemicals that make us feel good or change our mood? Maybe there is something seriously wrong with nature that we are constantly being drugged by ourselves, because apparently this happens all the time! There are even chemicals that make us sleepy. So, when you want to go to sleep, you are on drugs.

 

 

But... you will now probably say that this is all natural. But alcohol is taken by us, not produced in the body. Ok... I know.

 

Then what about chocolate (scroll down to "CHOCOLATE : the Psychoactive Cocktail")? Seems that chocolate releases those endorphins too, and it contains a whole bunch of other biologically active chemicals too - and surely taking some candy to make your body release drugs is just as bad as alcohol then?

 

Or, what about coffee, tea, or energy drinks? They have chemicals that interact with your body and brain... and the effect can be quite strong!

 

Even an ordinary good meal releases a whole cocktail of drugs... and a lot of food that we eat is not strickly necessary. We could just eat a carbohydrate/protein shake with some added vitamins (or whatever). But no, we like to eat "good food". Why? You think that's not like drugging yourself?? That feeling of joy and happiness is just a chemical cocktail, either coming directly from the food, or being produced in your body as a result of the food.

 

And it sure as hell is addictive. Find me one person who doesn't like good food. One person who says: "just get me the essential building blocks that I need, and don't bother about the taste". Or find me one person who does not sometimes eat too much. Why are dinner parties just as common as drinking parties? Because food makes you feel good. You're being drugged. An enormous cascade of chemicals are released... some make you sleepy. Some make you happy.

 

I think there are more obese (=fat) people than alcoholics (can't prove that now though). And there are certainly more people who like "good food" than people that drink alcohol (because I think there are no people that do not like good food, although taste differs). The effects of eating too much can be devastating, but only on the long term. Just like with alcohol, people go for the short term happiness of feeling nice, and do not care about long term health effects of getting too fat.

 

Shall we make nice food illegal? How about chocolate? Or caffeine?

 

So, tell me, if we look at all of that... can we maybe just conclude that changing the chemical balance in our bodies is quite natural and normal... and that alcohol is just one chemical in a long, long list of others?

Edited October 26, 2011 by CaptainPanic

[Appolinaria]

So many people live like this. Lol.

[matty]

So many people live like this. Lol.

 

And like this...

 

 

http://www.bigbigforums.com/off-topic-chat/438835-new-alcohol-warning-labels-funny.html

 

 

Yeah, that's all especially conducive to society's smoothing along like a well-oiled machine.

 

And that's only the lighter side, without even looking to all the decisions that get made under the influence, not to mention the morning After; driving isn't the only responsibility issue.

Edited November 8, 2011 by matty

[Prolific]

I think shrooms, LSD, weed and any other hallucinogenic mind expanding drugs should be legalized. It would be so conductive towards a more peaceful and wise population.

[johnny196775]

the fact that alcohol is legal means it is totaly harmless. while marijuana a very powerful and harmful drug stays ilegal in most places. sarcasm sarcasm.