aliens visiting us

[Edtharan]

If we ever find that light isn't the ultimate in speed, then practically any and everything is possible. Down through the ages some pretty smart civilizations have done incredible feats. Like the pyramids in Egypt, the Yucatan, Peru and the huge monoliths on Easter Island, even our calendars. Some modern medecines have been rediscovered from ancient formulas. But aliens from another solar system paying us a visit? I seriously doubt it. I can't say it isn't possible, but even the thought is too big for me. And Gods, we invent them almost daily. The Halebop fiasco was such a tragedy. Can you imagine supposidly sane, sophisticated and intelligent people carrying out such insanity? Even the thought is scary. While this planet is perhaps 4.5 billion years old, Humans have just arrived. I hope though that even a part of your philosophy is right.

You don't need FLT to travel to the stars. We might not personally go there, but a slow boat probe in a similar idea to the Mars rovers (semi autonomous) would be almost within our capabilities today. Such a ship could travel to another star using either solar sails or ion drives (or both combined). Ion drives are an already existant technology, and they are in use today with several space ships within our own solar system.

 

Ion drives are good because they can be used containiously for a long time and use very little fuel, although they don't give a large amount of force at any one time. Where as chemical rockets can give a huge amount of force, but only for short amounts of time and use a lot of fuel.

 

Chemical rockets are good for getting out of a planetary gravity well, but Ion drives are good for when you have a long flight time (like traveling to another solar system).

 

Small, semi-autonomous robotic probes could be manufactured in vast quantities with a mass production facility. The bigest cost we would have with such an endevor is getting the materials off Earth (the Moon would be a better place to start from). But a space based maufacturing facility (which could be automated or semi-automated itself) could be used to construct these probes from asteroids or comets.

 

It would be a logistical feat, naturally, but it could be done if we wanted to.

 

(1) What nation on Earth could, right now, construct such a 'slow-boat' Super-Ship ? Mankind cannot do it at present -- there is a difference, between what can be envisioned, and what can actually be implemented. What you have shown, is that such a Super-Ship is not "inconceivable to the minds of Mankind"... not that it can be built at present.

 

To paraphrase Shakespeare, "the reach exceeds the grasp".

It would most likely have to be an effort from the whole of the Earth to do this, but it could be done. There is a an economic model called "Post Scarcity". In this model manufactuing is advanced enough and automated enough that the cost of manufacturing is almost $0. This might sound like pure science fiction, but it is an actual reality.

 

With information, once the infromation has been put into a computer, it costs almost nothing to make another copy of that information. Information is already capable of being in a post scarcity economy.

 

What is needed is a way to make physical objects act like information, that they can be copied easily. There are machines called CNCs (Computer Numerical Control) that use information in computers to drive a manufactuing process (usually by removing material with atool head like). Advanced versions of these that are capable of laying down material in stead of removing it are called 3D printers or Rapid Prototying Machines.

 

At the moment, you can buy pre assembeled comercial versions for around $30,000. However, there are many kits out there that allow you, with a bit of skill, to create them for as little as $600.

 

What these low cost kits have done is to utilise post scarcity concepts, and have these machine be ablet o copy as much of themselves as possible. As the machines are manufactuing themselves from information stored in a computer, if you have one of these machines, they act a bit like a file in a computer and this drasitcally reduces their manufacturing costs.

 

So this type of technology is not science fiction, it is an existant technology. Also, it is a technology eary in development (these low cost 3D printers have only been around for about 5 years as hobby devices). When these machines stop being a hobby and start to be used in serious manufactuing, then this technology will rapidly mature and it will change how we see production of machines.

 

Now, take this and apply it to space vehicals (NASA already uses some high end 3D printers to manufacture components for use in space). With such 3D printers first printing themselves, and then manufactuing these probes, it would not take much in the way of cost to actually construct fleets of space probs that would journy to other star systems.

 

Sure, it might take 5,000 years to reach the nearest stars, but if the Human race could survive that long, then we could explore other star systems. But, with these advanced 3D printers, you could use raw materials, or even scrap materials, break them down and then use them to re-manufacture parts needed to repair a space ship. Thus large self sustaining ships could be built in the near future that would be able to carry humans on a slow boat/multigeneration ship to another star system.

 

Once this colony reaches their destination, they can begin constructing new colony ships using their 3D printers (and breeding their population) and then sending these new colony ships off.

 

It is the exponential growth again. All it takes is just 1 species to start doing this and the galaxy could be colonised.

[rigney]

You don't need FLT to travel to the stars. We might not personally go there, but a slow boat probe in a similar idea to the Mars rovers (semi autonomous) would be almost within our capabilities today. Such a ship could travel to another star using either solar sails or ion drives (or both combined). Ion drives are an already existant technology, and they are in use today with several space ships within our own solar system.

 

Ion drives are good because they can be used containiously for a long time and use very little fuel, although they don't give a large amount of force at any one time. Where as chemical rockets can give a huge amount of force, but only for short amounts of time and use a lot of fuel.

 

Chemical rockets are good for getting out of a planetary gravity well, but Ion drives are good for when you have a long flight time (like traveling to another solar system).

 

Small, semi-autonomous robotic probes could be manufactured in vast quantities with a mass production facility. The bigest cost we would have with such an endevor is getting the materials off Earth (the Moon would be a better place to start from). But a space based maufacturing facility (which could be automated or semi-automated itself) could be used to construct these probes from asteroids or comets.

 

It would be a logistical feat, naturally, but it could be done if we wanted to.

 

 

It would most likely have to be an effort from the whole of the Earth to do this, but it could be done. There is a an economic model called "Post Scarcity". In this model manufactuing is advanced enough and automated enough that the cost of manufacturing is almost $0. This might sound like pure science fiction, but it is an actual reality.

 

With information, once the infromation has been put into a computer, it costs almost nothing to make another copy of that information. Information is already capable of being in a post scarcity economy.

 

What is needed is a way to make physical objects act like information, that they can be copied easily. There are machines called CNCs (Computer Numerical Control) that use information in computers to drive a manufactuing process (usually by removing material with atool head like). Advanced versions of these that are capable of laying down material in stead of removing it are called 3D printers or Rapid Prototying Machines.

 

At the moment, you can buy pre assembeled comercial versions for around $30,000. However, there are many kits out there that allow you, with a bit of skill, to create them for as little as $600.

 

What these low cost kits have done is to utilise post scarcity concepts, and have these machine be ablet o copy as much of themselves as possible. As the machines are manufactuing themselves from information stored in a computer, if you have one of these machines, they act a bit like a file in a computer and this drasitcally reduces their manufacturing costs.

 

So this type of technology is not science fiction, it is an existant technology. Also, it is a technology eary in development (these low cost 3D printers have only been around for about 5 years as hobby devices). When these machines stop being a hobby and start to be used in serious manufactuing, then this technology will rapidly mature and it will change how we see production of machines.

 

Now, take this and apply it to space vehicals (NASA already uses some high end 3D printers to manufacture components for use in space). With such 3D printers first printing themselves, and then manufactuing these probes, it would not take much in the way of cost to actually construct fleets of space probs that would journy to other star systems.

 

Sure, it might take 5,000 years to reach the nearest stars, but if the Human race could survive that long, then we could explore other star systems. But, with these advanced 3D printers, you could use raw materials, or even scrap materials, break them down and then use them to re-manufacture parts needed to repair a space ship. Thus large self sustaining ships could be built in the near future that would be able to carry humans on a slow boat/multigeneration ship to another star system.

 

Once this colony reaches their destination, they can begin constructing new colony ships using their 3D printers (and breeding their population) and then sending these new colony ships off.

 

It is the exponential growth again. All it takes is just 1 species to start doing this and the galaxy could be colonised.

 

Moontanman brought the slow boat thing to my attention some time ago. How can you disagree with such straight forward philosophy? I only wish that I could, but I like to argue. If life survives, or has survived long enough in any aspect of our universe for the distribution of the human genome to be prevalant anywhere other than earth, would that not be amazing? Edited December 11, 2010 by rigney

[Edtharan]

Moontanman brought the slow boat thing to my attention some time ago. How can you disagree with such straight forward philosophy? I only wish that I could, but I like to argue. If life survives, or has survived long enough in any aspect of our universe for the distribution of the human genome to be prevalant anywhere other than earth, would that not be amazing?

I used humans because I was showing that we have (or almost have) the technology to do the whole slow boat thing. However, I don't believe that Humans have traveled to the stars (eg: taken by aliens to colonise other worlds - like in the Stargate movies and series).

 

If we can survive the next 100 years, we will have the technology to colonise other star systems, if there is no major stumbleing block along the way (like what we know about how curent technology works continues to do so, or that there are not some exotic phenomina that would fry living matter insode interstellar space craft). Inother words, if the universe continues to operate as we know it, and development continues at atleast the same pace as it does now (even a bit slower would be fine), then we will have the capability to do so (whether we use it is another question).

[Moontanman]

I have personally witnessed one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_%28UFO%29 while stargazing in a field during my younger years, not under the influence of any drug or alcohol, so are aliens visiting or have they at least done so in the past?, i believe so.

 

The one i saw was luminous blue, moved very slowly and rotated as it moved.

 

My brother saw this

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/TriangleBelgium1990.jpg/250px-

 

About 5 years before the Belgium sightings as it traveled at a very low altitude across the valley where he lived very late one night in the winter. He is an artist, he drew and painted pictures of it afterward, the resemblance was very very close to the above photo.

 

for some reason i am suddenly not able to post pics here...

[rigney]

I used humans because I was showing that we have (or almost have) the technology to do the whole slow boat thing. However, I don't believe that Humans have traveled to the stars (eg: taken by aliens to colonise other worlds - like in the Stargate movies and series).

 

If we can survive the next 100 years, we will have the technology to colonise other star systems, if there is no major stumbleing block along the way (like what we know about how curent technology works continues to do so, or that there are not some exotic phenomina that would fry living matter insode interstellar space craft). Inother words, if the universe continues to operate as we know it, and development continues at atleast the same pace as it does now (even a bit slower would be fine), then we will have the capability to do so (whether we use it is another question).

 

We are only a "blip" in this huge framework of universe. Dinosaurs lived here for millions of years and didn't get a thing done. We've been here only a short time, and I see no reason for man not to have a pretty good go at things. At least we don't eat each other any more. I don't think? There are guys right here on this forum who probably have good ideas of how to enhance and speed up the process. If I knew who they were I'd turn them in! A hundred years? C'mon! I hope you're right, but that is really speeding things up. Nice to be around about five hundred years from now though to check things out. Heck of it is, those with knowledge are going to keep on pushing the edge. The rest of us are just going to sit back, count our coin, check the pantry and wait for the other guy to get it done. Hope the next hundred years prove me wrong. Edited December 12, 2010 by rigney

[Edtharan]

We are only a "blip" in this huge framework of universe. Dinosaurs lived here for millions of years and didn't get a thing done. We've been here only a short time, and I see no reason for man not to have a pretty good go at things. At least we don't eat each other any more. I don't think? There are guys right here on this forum who probably have good ideas of how to enhance and speed up the process. If I knew who they were I'd turn them in! A hundred years? C'mon! I hope you're right, but that is really speeding things up. Nice to be around about five hundred years from now though to check things out. Heck of it is, those with knowledge are going to keep on pushing the edge. The rest of us are just going to sit back, count our coin, check the pantry and wait for the other guy to get it done. Hope the next hundred years prove me wrong.

The reason I use a 100 year timeframe for our ability to begin interstellar voyages is that we curently have the technology to send small probes there, just not the economic ability to do so easily (we could do it but it would be a huge drain on the world's economy). Of course, these small probes would take thousands of years to get there, but we could do it if we had the will to do so.

 

Ion engines already exist, and with enough fuel (a big fuel tank) we could get a space craft up to speeds that would allow it to reach interstellar space and enventually react another star.

 

In a way we have already done this, the Voyager space scraft are now reaching the edge of our solar system (IIRC the heliopause where the influence of the solar wind is negated by interstellar particles). These will eventually reach other star systems (or at least get out far enough to be amoung them) and this is using chemical rocket, not ion engines.

 

Ion engines, because they can operate for longer times can allow the space craft to reach much higher velocities. The voyager craft have been going for around 43 years, and most of this time they have been coasting as they have no fuel left.

 

An ion engine craft could have been accelerating for all this time, and even though the force of that accelerating is much lower, the craft would have built up a much higher speed.

 

This is with today's technolgy: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster ).

 

An automated probe sent to another star system would most likely have to be nuclear (to both provide power and to keep it warm), but not in terms of a fission power plant. An atomic battery using ⁶³Ni (Nickle isotope with 35 neutrons) would have a half life of around 100 years. You would only need a few months to give the space craft enough velocity to make such a journey.

 

So, using only today's technology, such a craft is possible now.

 

The reason I gave 100 years is for economic reasons. It is the ability to put resources into such a venture is what is stopping us, not a lack of technology.

 

If you look at the trends of manufactuing, then the ability to construct complex and sophisticated devices is getting cheaper. This is through automation of production (robots are so much better and faster at it than we are). Just look at Moor's Laws and computing. It has been around 18 months that halves the cost per unit of computing power/memory. Although other technolgies have different time frames, many of them also exhibit such increaseing rates of improvment.

 

Following this to its natural conclusion (that is if it continues), then well before 100 years are up we will have the economic power to apply to such an endevour. As it is an economic problem rather than a technological one, We should see plans for automatic probes to be sent to other star systems as serious proposals within a few decades.

 

The main technology that needs to be developed for my scenario to play out for humans is that of automatic factories that can construct space scraft from raw materials found within solar systems. This could take longer than a few decades, but the basic technologies to do so already exist (3D printers and such). We need robotic systems that can identify materials and harvest them into useable materials.

 

NASA already has a working prototype of a 3D printer that can print in metals, and this could be used to construct such space carft.

 

So it is not a matter of technology, we have the basic technolgies to do so, it is a matter of integrating them into a conhesive system (a lot easier said than done, but not impossible) and the funds to do so.

 

I don't doubt that if we find a planet around a nearby star that seems to have the conditions necesary for life (in the habitable zone, liquid water and an atmosphere) there will be a serious proposal to send an automatic probe, if all it does is go into orbit and examine the planet closely.

[rigney]

It's only a matter of time until our galaxy is opened up to legitimate exploration, not just unmanned probes. And since the human brain seems to be locked into an exponential growth much as the runup on an ion engine, it could happen even sooner? That's the beauty of both, the engine and mans brain. Seems the faster they go, the faster they go. Personally, I had almost concluded that practically everything worth inventing, had been invented. Wrong, totally wrong!! The good stuff keeps coming in almost on a daily basis. I think President Truman said it best in his statement. Quote: It's amazing what can be accomplished, if we don't care who gets the credit.

[Anura]

I have personally witnessed one of these http://en.wikipedia....angle_%28UFO%29 while stargazing in a field during my younger years, not under the influence of any drug or alcohol, so are aliens visiting or have they at least done so in the past?, i believe so.

 

The one i saw was luminous blue, moved very slowly and rotated as it moved.

 

I dont believe you need to be on drugs to have a hallucination.

[Moontanman]

I dont believe you need to be on drugs to have a hallucination.

 

 

I am not sure I am willing to say anyone who sees something inexplicable in the sky or on the ground is hallucinating. I know it's not a popular thing to talk about in this forum but there are UFO sightings (and i use UFO in it's original definition) that are inexplicable and suffer from an embarrassingly plentiful amount of data, sightings by that occurred on front of many trained observers, both machine and human, sightings that are simply not explainable and not because of a lack of data. The biggest thing about UFOs you need to know is that the US military investigation of them was fatally flawed and had absolutely nothing to do with actually investigating UFOs and everything to do with debunking them at all costs. Now I have gone over this stuff many times in this forum but there is an inexplicable phenomenon that occurs in the sky and we cannot explain it.

 

The most reasonable explanation for at least some sightings is indeed some sort of totally unknown craft... I cannot say what a crew of a B-52 bomber carrying nuclear weapons saw, the aircrafts own radar, ground radar, a commercial aircraft crew and passengers, ground crews at a nuclear missile base, and the coincidence that the nuclear missiles went off line for no apparent reason during this event and this is just one sighting!

 

Now what these things are i have no clue but I know they have never really been properly investigated and anyone who tries to do so is immediately a part of a shit storm of ridicule and disinformation.

 

Dr. Josef Allen Hynek found this out to his chagrin when he worked for the US air force to debunk the sightings they were supposed to be investigating, he applied the scientific method and determined something totally unknown was going on.

[Incendia]

My question then is:

 

So what makes anyone think aliens can visit us?

 

The stereotype that aliens are vastly more advanced than us.

[JohnB]

Firstly, if they are visiting us then it would be self evident that they had superior technology.

 

Secondly the probability is that alien races are more advanced than we are.

[Incendia]

Why is it more probable that alien races are more advanced?

[Ophiolite]

Why is it more probable that alien races are more advanced?

Because the universe is 13.5 billion years old, and we are not.

 

On the other hand, the Fermi Paradox can be explained if we are the most advanced intelligent race.

[Incendia]

That's not good evidence...There are other factors involved other than time...civilisations do have a tendency to you know...destroy themselves...Then there is nature...I think there predicted number of alien lifeforms should be halved...I think the equations we used to show how many alien civilisations there should be are over-optimistic. They need to be updated to get a more pessimistic answer. The italics in this post signify opinion.

[rigney]

That's not good evidence...There are other factors involved other than time...civilisations do have a tendency to you know...destroy themselves...Then there is nature...I think there predicted number of alien lifeforms should be halved...I think the equations we used to show how many alien civilisations there should be are over-optimistic. They need to be updated to get a more pessimistic answer. The italics in this post signify opinion.

 

Civilizations? My God!, I hope we have already far understimated what the universe offers. With the billions of galaxies, and perhaps the potentiality of trillians of livable planets in solar systems we will never know anything about??!! Please! don't be overly pessimistic. Edited December 15, 2010 by rigney