Fixing Iraq

[matter]

This thread is my offer to the politics forum as a place to mix opinions about the best ways to help Iraq become stable, and to make sure Iraqi's can live their lives again. Ways to help are the ONLY ideas that should be discussed. There are a few "rules" I would like to set though.

 

First, you can't say "Americans should leave". No, it's clear that the United States military can't just leave. The United States is there now, that is reality, and the U.S. is to be held responsible by the world for Iraq's condition post Saddam Hussein.

 

Also please do not say "Bush is a moron and we never should of been in Iraq". Bush may be a moron but that is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to hold a discussion about ways to help Iraq with it's current situation. That means helping Iraq while it's caught in war. The Coalition is obviously not going to stop military action and fighters in Iraq aren't going to stop either.

 

So discuss your military and non-military actions that you think would help Iraq, and let's try to come to a conclusion. If the United States and Iraqi Interim Government can't conjure up a solution, maybe we can.

[Mad Mardigan]

I read this article that explains the difficulty in it.

 

 

Modern Iraq was created after the defeat of the German-allied Ottoman Empire in World War I, when the victorious British and French carved up the territory of their defeated rival. One of their decisions was the establishment of the new nation of Iraq under the rule of King Faisal I. The monarch had led the great war's Arab revolt—popularized by Lawrence of Arabia—and had captured Damascus from the Ottomans in 1918.

 

Within the country's borders, three major groups—each with an identity and an agenda—occupy fairly distinct geographic regions (see map): Sunni Muslims, Shiite Muslims, and Kurds. Each calls Iraq home, but each is unsure of what its role will be in the new Iraq. If the country's territorial integrity is to be respected, they must somehow work together.

 

source = http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0423_030423_iraqcultures.html

[Pangloss]

Yah, according to Yergin (in "The Prize"), the Grand Vizier granted the first Mid-East oil consession to the French on the same day that Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated. Talk about bad timing. (chuckle) That consession was for the famous Mosul field, and after the war was over the French traded it to Britain in exchange for Transjordan (yeah, the whole thing).

[Phi for All]

A radical approach might be to work diplomatically with Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria to divide Iraq up and make it part of those three countries. Whether they keep the name Iraq or not is up to them. It used to be Ottoman Iraq, Ottoman Arabia, etc, anyway, less than a hundred years ago.

 

This would allow them to keep their culture and be ruled by fellow Muslims. It also allows us to get out ASAP (we trust at least SA & Jordan, right?). It's really not up to us to force democracy down people's throats (especially when we really don't have a representative democracy ourselves).

 

I really don't know what the religious implications might be. I also don't know how proud the Iraqi's are of NOT being Jordanian or Syrian or Saudi Arabian. If it meant a more stable government and the US/UK would leave, they might be all for it.

[steve5jack]

I think the best solution involves creating a trust from all of the oil money that directly goes back to the citizens of Iraq. Much like Alaska did for awhile (citizens of Alaska did not pay state income tax and actually received money back from the state). The quicker money gets flowing into their economy and people realize how great their lives can be, the quicker the regular citizens turn on the few who are causing all the problems.

[matter]

What about military strategics against the Iraqi fighters? Muqtada Al Sadr seems to have a lot Iraqi citizens who support him and they're ready to fight. How would the U.S. and the coalition stop them? And foreign fighters with ties to Al Qaeda are in Iraq and using their strategies against the coalition. There can't be diplomacy while this is happening.

 

I think the U.S. needs to shift dramatically the way it is conducting military actions against Iraqi fighters and Al Qaeda. I can't rack my brain for a good solution right now, I just woke up.

[Dave]

That's because there isn't a good solution to it. Even if they were to go and kill bin Laden, he'd be acclaimed as a martyr and some other lunatic will come up to take his place. Hence, we're in rather a large pickle as to what to do, because as it stands this could go on for a century or more. Bush has started something that nobody knows how to stop.

[Phi for All]

Since responding to terrorism with splashy, media-infested, high profile wars and such is playing right into their hands, I wonder if a more covert, black ops kind of approach is needed. As I've said before, smart-bombs, jets and tanks are no way to get rid of small, highly mobile terrorist cells and splinter rebel groups. How about some desert ninja commando spooks who speak Kurdi and Arabic?

[Dave]

Just get the SAS in. They'll take care of it.

 

It also looks like they're murdering those hostages, which isn't a great surprise. I have to say that it's starting to get to me quite a lot now: I feel like going and beating Tony Blair and George Bush over the head to try and knock some sense into them.

 

I saw this from a BBC News Online article:

 

"But our response has not got to be to weaken. Our response has got to be to stand firm, to say - whatever the differences over the Iraq conflict - there is a clear right and wrong on these issues, and that is to be with the democrats and against the terrorists."

 

Couldn't help but think "I bet those hostages aren't thinking about that right now".

[Skye]

Creating a legitimate leadership the Iraqi people support would be the first step.

[matter]

I think the only way to winning the fight against the cells operating in Iraq is months of surveillance and informants.

 

Maybe if the coalition had something very good to offer, more Iraqi's would have to help. So what's the best thing the coalition could offer? Anyone have any ideas?

 

I forgot to mention that Israel is doing a decent job against Palestinian militants, so could Israels strategies be applied to coalition forces?

[LuTze]

I forgot to mention that Israel is doing a decent job against Palestinian militants, so could Israels strategies be applied to coalition forces?

You mean Americans should start setting up settlements in the "Green Zone", then build a bloody great wall around it? Sounds fun.

[matter]

I'm talking more about their intelligence gathering techniques.

[Dave]

How long do you think it'll take to infiltrate these cells? They've been trying to for years without any major success.

[budullewraagh]

so could Israels strategies be applied to coalition forces?

wow, please NEVER compare the palestinians with terrorists. the palestinians got the shaft when britain and the us decided to annex their land after the second world war. they have righteous anger. but hey, the israelis refuse to give them back their land. what a shame

[john5746]

wow, please NEVER compare the palestinians with terrorists. the palestinians got the shaft when britain and the us decided to annex their land after the second world war. they have righteous anger. but hey, the israelis refuse to give them back their land. what a shame

 

Maybe, but Hamas is a terrorist organization and hurting the Palestinian cause. The PLO needs to condem all terrorism and try the route of peaceful demonstration. If they would do this, they would get so much support. They also need to drop the "no Israel" idea.

 

Fix Iraq? Have Iraq people vote on who they want to govern them. Give that person a strong military and get out. Tell the leader to get things in shape and if we see a problem we will be back!

 

We could invade Iraq 10 times cheaper and easier than to occupy and rebuild it.

 

How's that for "bleeding heart liberalism?"

[matter]

wow, please NEVER compare the palestinians with terrorists. the palestinians got the shaft when britain and the us decided to annex their land after the second world war. they have righteous anger. but hey, the israelis refuse to give them back their land. what a shame

 

I didn't say palestinians were terrorists, but the militants operate in the same way, as all resistance cells do. The iraqi fighters, and fighters with connections to Al Qaeda AREN'T invulnerable. It's just a matter or finding the right system to fight them I believe. There is a solution, and Israel has been making progress.

 

Dave: I believe if the coalition put their minds to it they could really work surveillance to their advantage. Iraqi fighters and Al Qaeda members have to meet up at one location at some point. Hopefully the coalition is competent enough to wait until they're together and then strike.

 

Anybody think there is a better way?

[john5746]

Al Queda could cease to exist and it wouldn't make a difference in Iraq. WE should concentrate on them because that is OUR enemy.

 

You have Shiite, Sunni and the Kurds. Shiite and Sunni are both fighting us currently. They will eventually fight each other and the Kurds, they will probably try to break away from Iraq completely.

 

So, as we did in Iran and other places, we will put in a Puppet and support him. It will be a "democracy" instead of a dictator, but he will need to be very strong - no Dan Rather running around talking about him - can't have that. Can't have any opposition.

 

Then we will wonder what happened when the clerics take over.

[blike]

wow, please NEVER compare the palestinians with terrorists. the palestinians got the shaft when britain and the us decided to annex their land after the second world war. they have righteous anger. but hey, the israelis refuse to give them back their land. what a shame

The original quote was: "I forgot to mention that Israel is doing a decent job against Palestinian militants, so could Israels strategies be applied to coalition forces?"

 

Did you catch it that time?