The Girl/Boy Song

[Xittenn]

In my ever constant search, as of yet still not as successful as I would hope, to find my peeps I recently spent some time on some Freenode.net IRC channels. I loaded ##C++, ##C++-social, #Haskel, #Robotics, #physics, #math, #not-math and so on and frequented them for the better part of the last two months. I asked a few questions in #math revolving around first order logic and maybe two questions in ##C++ and whether or not there were any suggested reads from the #robotics club on rubber type EAPs. For the most part I either knew everything about a topic of discussion or nothing and me being a bit clumsy I avoided answering anything that I did know and just kept on eye on discussions.

 

Being that I wanted to meet more people with interests like myself and develop non-question like discussions and maybe some cohorts to collaborate with I stuck to opening my big mouth in the social channels. I went by the nick 'xittenn' that I have been using more recently which the fellows took some time to decipher. And then comes the question ....

 

<channel> are you a girl?

<xittenn> yes?

<channel> it's a trap!

<xittenn>

<xittenn> http://www.myspace.com/pics.html

<channel> hey she's a girl

<xittenn> o.o

<channel> wow we have two girls in the channel \o/

 

and so on .... So like I mean for the most part they were pure gentlemen, in fact I was probably the worst of the bunch and my rants about certain lifestyles were often entertained.

 

I left the channels after to months as I did not feel I was making any headway with developing a network of like minded peeps. This was somewhat upsetting because a lot of the fellows were doing just that and doing it rather successfully. I know I am a difficult person to respect at times and often am hard to understand so it isn't much of a surprise. But is this why women do not exist on the internet? I mean most people in general life do not appreciate the intricacies of the maths and the sciences and so forth, so I would assume it would be difficult in general. But honestly I feel that the number of like minded women is in no way marginal! Why are there no girls on the intertubes? Forgive me if this is a silly question ...

[mooeypoo]

There are less women than men in sciences in general (though as far as I know, this is beginning to change now). And in general, there are less women into computers than there are men into computers.

 

But there are women online. Quite a lot of them... maybe you're not looking in the right places?

[Xittenn]

I just do not understand the trend is all. I mean I guess with history having been the way it was ... but when I grew up sex didn't matter. So now when I hear that women are an oddity to certain things well, I just don't understand. I mean for me we all played video games together, my advanced sciences classes were half and half and everyone I know is online. Most of the persons I knew didn't become scientists however male or female. I just assumed things were like on TV like bones you know. There's bound to be just as many nerd girls as boys. Maybe it's that girls work and behave themselves and the boys fool around in the back alleys? Which explains my presence 'cause I'm just so baaad.

[John Cuthber]

Mooey, just for the record, there are fewer women in science, not less women.

[vordhosbn]

There are No Girls on the Internet Edited December 16, 2010 by vordhosbn

[mooeypoo]

Mooey, just for the record, there are fewer women in science, not less women.

 

Indeed. Thank you for the correction.

 

I just do not understand the trend is all. I mean I guess with history having been the way it was ... but when I grew up sex didn't matter.

Really? I find that hard to believe. I grew up in a very open minded place where my interests in science were *mostly* encouraged. But even so, it was (and still is, in my experience) considered "man's world". Science and technology wasn't what the girls were "expected" to do, and while I wasn't detered by that, I have some friends who were.

 

I believe women should go into sciences and technology a lot more, and I do think that the problem probably isn't as "simple" as a lot of people seem to make it. But there *are* differences, and the "attitude" difference may not be outright obvious but it exists.

 

That said, there are also differences in the workplace itself. Women make less money than equivalent position filled by a man. Women had problems (it seems to get a bit better now, but still not as good as it should be) getting into competitive positions in stead of men because of potential maternity leave, taking care of families, etc. It still is *different* for a man to be a "business man" and a woman to be a "business woman".

 

You might not have been asked that, but I have; "Don't you want children?" or "How would you take care of a family if you want to be in space?" and such questions. Do you think men are asked those questions? Maybe some, but absolutely not the amount that women are asked those.

 

I lived my entire life with these subversive "doubts" and "suspicions" about my ability to perform well as a woman "nerd" (only men are "nerds", don't you know?). The fact I pushed those aside and decided to prove everyone wrong doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

So now when I hear that women are an oddity to certain things well, I just don't understand. I mean for me we all played video games together, my advanced sciences classes were half and half and everyone I know is online.

You want to tell me that you never heard anyone being surprised about a woman gamer? That's the oddity.

 

Most of the persons I knew didn't become scientists however male or female. I just assumed things were like on TV like bones you know. There's bound to be just as many nerd girls as boys. Maybe it's that girls work and behave themselves and the boys fool around in the back alleys? Which explains my presence 'cause I'm just so baaad.

 

Television and movies are starting to go "against the stream" beacuse people LIKE the idea of a smart sexy scientist woman. This, btw, is one of the main criticisms about the (awesome) show "Big Bang Theory". The women scientists there are mostly nerdy and not feminine, and the media should "encourage" the view that nerd women are sexy women too.

 

I don't know if I agree with that or not, but it's quite obvious the media is shifting towards that nowadays, and it didn't used to be that prevalent in the past. Maybe it will help change conceptions, like the inclusion of african american actors in main character positions helped shift things for that movement. Who knows.

 

But the social problem *DOES* exist. You simply were "lucky" to not have noticed it.

[StringJunky]

 

Television and movies are starting to go "against the stream" beacuse people LIKE the idea of a smart sexy scientist woman. This, btw, is one of the main criticisms about the (awesome) show "Big Bang Theory". The women scientists there are mostly nerdy and not feminine, and the media should "encourage" the view that nerd women are sexy women too.

 

 

 

In fairness to the BBT show, the female nerds are depicted in the same spirit as the the male characters... as equally odd!

Edited December 16, 2010 by StringJunky

[Xittenn]

 

Really? I find that hard to believe. I grew up in a very open minded place where my interests in science were *mostly* encouraged. But even so, it was (and still is, in my experience) considered "man's world". Science and technology wasn't what the girls were "expected" to do, and while I wasn't detered by that, I have some friends who were.

 

I believe women should go into sciences and technology a lot more, and I do think that the problem probably isn't as "simple" as a lot of people seem to make it. But there *are* differences, and the "attitude" difference may not be outright obvious but it exists.

 

That said, there are also differences in the workplace itself. Women make less money than equivalent position filled by a man. Women had problems (it seems to get a bit better now, but still not as good as it should be) getting into competitive positions in stead of men because of potential maternity leave, taking care of families, etc. It still is *different* for a man to be a "business man" and a woman to be a "business woman".

 

You might not have been asked that, but I have; "Don't you want children?" or "How would you take care of a family if you want to be in space?" and such questions. Do you think men are asked those questions? Maybe some, but absolutely not the amount that women are asked those.

 

I lived my entire life with these subversive "doubts" and "suspicions" about my ability to perform well as a woman "nerd" (only men are "nerds", don't you know?). The fact I pushed those aside and decided to prove everyone wrong doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

 

Interests in anything weren't generally encouraged in any way when I went to school, people just followed their paths. Where I went to school academics or any professional endeavors weren't taken near as seriously as they are in the States. I think this is by and large because people here don't feel that anyone one person is any more capable of anything than another and what one pursues is a consequence of many actions. This attitude I think generalized into gender roles.

 

Women in my classes were often considered to be the more intelligent than the general man and this actually goes back to nerds and video games. Although socially women here play games as a 'social activity', men here tend to dwell on them(I should note that when I refer to here I refer to Ontario, currently in BC I am finding things more of a mans world but this tends to be with families who have immigrated more recently.) It isn't an uncommon bias here also that only men are nerds. I think a generality that is made here is that women are more focused and don't 'screw' around like men do; this reminds me of the boy and his sister in the grocery store yesterday, oh man.

 

True also here that men do tend to earn a higher pay, but I wouldn't say that it is by doing the same jobs. I guess things do separate a good deal coming out of school. Men will take jobs that have a higher tendency towards injury and require much in terms of heavy weight lifting. This does provide the men with an advantage because they then make more money where a lady who tends a counter in a coffee shop will not. This does make higher learning more accessible to men and as a consequence there is a rise here in women finding work in porn and stripping as a means to go to school. Women do tend to find more help from their families here after high school where men tend to get removed from the premises. That said it is not uncommon for a husband and a wife here to be making near the same income. Their jobs do tend to reflect their life choices however where men are more likely to be plant managers and executives and women are more likely to head accounting and manage banks. This also reflects a great deal in the types of business being started respectively. I know one women who is attempting to start a franchise in electrolysis, where both of my brothers are starting businesses one in landscaping one in painting. Doctors tend to be a split mix and an equal share although more surgeons tend to be male and there is a higher percentage of female nurses as this does tend to be the female equivalent to production labour.

 

I think of all the persons I knew who were potential academics the ones I recall as having the potential and that I would suspect to have achieved are all women.

 

 

But the social problem *DOES* exist. You simply were "lucky" to not have noticed it.

 

 

Maybe so! I think the world needs to grow up though and I hope that this changes soon enough; IMHO.

 

I still can't explain the complete absence of women from investigative channels on irc. Unless it is a direct consequence of the world outside mine being so vastly different.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Xittenn

[Moontanman]

 

You might not have been asked that, but I have; "Don't you want children?" or "How would you take care of a family if you want to be in space?" and such questions. Do you think men are asked those questions? Maybe some, but absolutely not the amount that women are asked those.

 

 

Mooeypoo SPACEWOMAN! I think that is a great idea! Although there are many woman in science, from what I know about men I'll bet it's an uphill battle to gain respect as a woman. Keep at it Xittenn, don't give up!

 

For ladies only! Half the world has been built upon their tears...

Steppenwolf

 

btw good to see you back mooey

[mooeypoo]

I still can't explain the complete absence of women from investigative channels on irc. Unless it is a direct consequence of the world outside mine being so vastly different.

 

Or the perspective is different.

[gnarledreaper]

There are a lot of women who use the internet but there are also lots of men who will jump at the chance to chat up said women, if you make yourself known as female in an anonymous irc channel, forum or any other medium there are bound to be a few men that will be obscene or annoying, a lot of women will hide themselves or not give away gender so they are accepted, it may sound sexist but it is true.

[Xittenn]

Well it sucks .... Most of my friends have always been women. I find it hard to be in a place where people exchange ideas without my posse. This is sort of why I'm there, to find my posse. Sure I have my Facebook friends but they aren't into the hard stuff. Making friends is hard when the dynamics of the situation are so off. It's really sad too because the content is A1. I feel like I'm having a very Alien conversation here and doubly so in light of my 'perspective'.

[CaptainPanic]

I think the net is just like any other group of friends... and your sex matters, btw.

 

First of all, you can be motivated to join a certain group of people, but they might not accept you at first. Nobody does. You can't simply join a group, and expect to be accepted immediately. It takes time to become friends. This can happen fast, or it can take time. It may also fail completely. It's really hard to tell what makes people decide they're friends. (Certainly for an engineer like myself, this type of soft science is difficult. You can't put it in a formula). These kinds of processes happen all the time, everywhere. I've observed this from both sides of the equation (as group member and as lonely outsider) since I was in primary school until now in my professional life.

 

I guess friends are in a sort of agreement where they have a mutual benefit. This can range from humor, insight, sharing opinions, to very practical things and even bribery (where you buy friends). But I think everybody has to offer something in a friend-relationship (hahaha - I may not quantify it and find a formula, but hell, I am modeling it). So, there's your practical tip: offer something in the group that you want to have as friends.

 

It's also hard to say when you've "arrived". Perhaps when people start offering something back (which you may not even notice, other than a feeling of comfort)? The definition of a friend is vague... and there is no tested method for making friends. You just have to find a group or person and get a *click*.

 

Now, the internet, of course, is a harsh place. It's like the biggest school yard in the world, and you enter all alone. Since there are so many places, nobody feels obliged to accept you. You can experience that as something negative. You can also be positive and think that you now have an infinite number of possible friends from which you only have to select a few.

 

And about you being a girl. You just have to deal with the fact that men are always looking for women. It's like a subprocess that's always running in the background of our brains, and it cannot be shut down... We're all very sorry if you don't like it... but we can't change it. Our main purpose is to meet and mate with a woman, and we try to rule the world just to achieve that (let's see how many remarks I get about that). It has interfered with professional relations a near-infinite number of times in the world. Men's interests do not change when they go online, but the code of conduct does change. There is a form of anarchy. You just have to live with that. You can try to avoid the issue by being vague (like I don't know the sex of the majority of forum members here) or you can try to use it to your advantage. That's up to you.

Edited December 17, 2010 by CaptainPanic

[mississippichem]

And about you being a girl. You just have to deal with the fact that men are always looking for women. It's like a subprocess that's always running in the background of our brains, and it cannot be shut down... We're all very sorry if you don't like it... but we can't change it. Our main purpose is to meet and mate with a woman, and we try to rule the world just to achieve that (let's see how many remarks I get about that). It has interfered with professional relations a near-infinite number of times in the world. Men's interests do not change when they go online, but the code of conduct does change. There is a form of anarchy. You just have to live with that. You can try to avoid the issue by being vague (like I don't know the sex of the majority of forum members here) or you can try to use it to your advantage. That's up to you.

 

Yes, we men are truly simple and stupid creatures. Even the ones of us who may know "intelligent stuff" like differential equations really only desire sex and beer. Women shouldn't think too hard when analyzing our predictable antics. Just think, "If I were a drunken pervert what would I do next?" you'll be right within margin of error most of the time .

[ydoaPs]

Obligatory xkcd:

[mooeypoo]

Yes, we men are truly simple and stupid creatures. Even the ones of us who may know "intelligent stuff" like differential equations really only desire sex and beer. Women shouldn't think too hard when analyzing our predictable antics. Just think, "If I were a drunken pervert what would I do next?" you'll be right within margin of error most of the time .

 

This isn't about who is smarter and who is stupider, it's about how society *perceives* these things. Social perceptions dictate the way either group is treated.

 

There is little doubt that there's a problem with women and sciences and technology; the question is why this happens. There's also little doubt in the fact that it *is* getting better. Compared to, say, the 1950s (or even compared to 10 years ago) the situation today is much better. But in order to continue making things improve and continue trying to fix the problem, we should try and find the source.

 

Ignoring the fact that there are differences between men and women (physical and social) then we are missing the point. I'm sure no one here does that, from what I've read at least. But the point is that if we want to see *why* a situation is the way it is (say, why there aren't any more girls or women into science and tech) we should check what of those differences leads to women not being in these fields.

 

 

 

~moo

[Marat]

A more interesting question is why does it matter? Modern identity politics seems to assume that it must be somehow evidence of discrimination or prejudice if the number of people from any particular group active in any particular area of society is not exactly proportional to their percentage in the general society. But the disproportions could well be due simply to different levels of interest in that particular field by different races, genders, and ethnic groups. Is it discimination which causes so many black males to be basketball stars? Is it discrimination that one survey showed that 60% of psychiatrists in the United States are Jews? If we assume that different cultures have different career interests -- which modern multiculturalism requires us to affirm and cherish -- then why wouldn't they also tend to go into different fields according to the interests which their cultures pre-program them to develop?

[StringJunky]

A more interesting question is why does it matter? Modern identity politics seems to assume that it must be somehow evidence of discrimination or prejudice if the number of people from any particular group active in any particular area of society is not exactly proportional to their percentage in the general society. But the disproportions could well be due simply to different levels of interest in that particular field by different races, genders, and ethnic groups. Is it discimination which causes so many black males to be basketball stars? Is it discrimination that one survey showed that 60% of psychiatrists in the United States are Jews? If we assume that different cultures have different career interests -- which modern multiculturalism requires us to affirm and cherish -- then why wouldn't they also tend to go into different fields according to the interests which their cultures pre-program them to develop?

 

You maybe right. How do we know that women are not already adequately represented given their present level of interest as a group? By that I mean Science and Tech may be naturally a minority interest amongst the female population....it doesn't follow necessarily that distribution of career aspirations amongst women should mirror that of men.

 

My hunch is that people like Mooey and Xitten et al here are not as common in the general female population as their type are in the male population...the distribution of intellectual capability may be on a par between the sexes but the types of interest prevalent in each may not be, in this case Science and Tech.

[Mr Skeptic]

I think it's a little of each. Discrimination causes people to slightly underrepresent themselves in that field, which lowers interest in the field by others from their group, and shifts expectations that those of that group are less likely to go in that field, which leads to at least a little bit of discrimination, such as less encouragement to enter that field than others might receive. What I'm saying is I think there's a little bit of a feedback loop, so that discrimination from generations past is still felt today even if only slightly. But as more women join the ranks of scientists, the idea that women are less likely to do science will continue fading until the main difference left is simply due to lack of interest.

 

As for certain different representations, I think some of them are explained genetically. This is best seen by looking at who dominates at the very highest of levels, for example the racial distribution of Olympic winners of the various competitions. Differences in fast-twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers, for example. You can't really reach the very highest levels unless you match your genes and training.

http://www.kenanmali...s/olympics.html

[Marat]

Women are more biologically stable than men, which is the product of evolutionary processes reflecting the fact that genetic experiments with women are more dangerous than those with men, since if a single male survives even a large group can produce an undiminished number of offspring in the next generation, while if a single woman survives the propagation of the group will be severely endangered. This is part of the reason why there are so many diseases which women carry but which affect only men, such as hemophilia.

 

But this stability comes at the cost of women being stuck nearer the middle of the Bell curve when it comes to IQ. If you go to any institution for the severely mentally disabled, you will see that almost all the patients are male. Since male and female IQs on average are about equal, that has to mean that there is a corresponding shortage of female geniuses. If achievement in some field demands extraordinary intelligence, such as being a great composer, males will predominate. But in fields merely demanding a higher than normal intelligence, like medicine, you will find that there are about equal numbers of males and females in training now in Western countries.

[mooeypoo]

The only way to know how much of each actually affects reality is to check and test and examine related studies. Otherwise, the "assumptions" can be totally unhelpful and serve only to make the problem worse rather than fix it.

 

We have to know the actual situation and a bit more information about the suspected causes before we offer an opinion of whether or not the cause is normal or whether or not it needs a solution.